The impact of Marcion...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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The impact of Marcion...

Post by rgprice »

I'm currently reading two very eye opening books on Marcion: Marcion and Luke-Acts: A Defining Struggle and The First New Testament: Marcion's Scriptural Canon.

These certainly change my perspective quite a bit.

My interpretation of Paul is that Paul considered himself a Jew, and the Joshua Paul worshiped was either a risen Joshua son of Nun or some previously unknown Joshua who had been revealed from pesher. I suspect that many Jews worshiped Joshua around the time of Paul, and Paul's views on the risen Joshua were in the minority. So, I suspect that Joshua worship wasn't anything too dramatic at first, but was likely related to Jewish millenarianism and the belief in a coming Final Judgement.

But anyway, despite the fact that Paul's Joshua was still deeply tied to Judaism , Paul nevertheless sought to convert large numbers of Gentiles to the worship of the Jewish God before the Final Judgement by getting around the requirement of circumcision. This caused a major split between Paul and other Jews and Joshua worshipers.

Marcion picked up on this split. Clearly Marcion sought to disassociate the teachings and Joshua of Paul from their Jewish roots. Marcion was the first to create a "New Testament". The goal of Marcion's "New Testament was to show that the God of Paul was not the God of the Jews. There was a break from the old Jewish religion. The best way to exemplify such a break, of course, is for there to be a NEW prophet, a NEW Joshua, who had come recently.

The best way to break from the old religion was for there to be a new recent figure who revealed the new God.

Marcion's impact on establishing the view that Jesus was a new recently lived incarnation of the new God, as opposed to a figure derived from ancient Jewish scriptures, is undeniable. I had always known that there was some Marcion guy who had put forward the first collection of Paul's letters and that he had some Gospel that was similar to Luke, but I never really grasped his full impact. Clearly, Acts is written as an anti-Marcionite work, which is why it has Paul acting ultra-Jewish and endorsing circumcision. That was clearly designed to tie Paul back to Judaism to refute the Marcionite view of Paul as one who broke from Judaism.

But the most vexing thing is that what is presumably the first Gospel, the Gospel of Mark, both serves the Marcionite function of breaking with Judaism and presenting a new prophet for a new God, but is also deeply tied to Judaism! I can't imagine that Marcion or Marcionite thought could have produced the Gospel of Mark, for it is way too deeply tied into the Jewish scriptures, but at the same time it serves Marcionite goals in many other ways.
Giuseppe
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by Giuseppe »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:17 amThe best way to exemplify such a break, of course, is for there to be a NEW prophet, a NEW Joshua, who had come recently.
interesting.

Is there some evidence that the concept of novelty, news, strangeness, innovation etc was particularly connected with the name "Joshua"?

Where?

If yes, then this may explain the Marcion's focus on Joshua, contra factum that it means "YHWH saves" and Marcion hated YHWH.
Giuseppe
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by Giuseppe »

The greatest evidence of this connection "Joshua"/novelty is found in John 1:17 :

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

But it seems that Marcion opposed the new Joshua against the old Joshua, not only against Moses.
rgprice
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by rgprice »

Never thought of it this way:
Hadrian’s orders brought
to a crisis the simmering issue of Christian ties to Jewish identity.
Whatever the internal developments within Christianity that prepared
the way for the creation of a New Testament, it is simply impossible
to dismiss the coincidence in time of Hadrian’s anti-Torah
campaign and Marcion’s call for the establishment of a distinct and
separate Christian sacred scripture. Given the political and social
circumstances, it is not at all surprising that it was precisely at this
time that Marcion became a major voice for the clear differentiation
of “Christianity” and “Judaism.”
- THE FIRST NEW TESTAMENT Marcion’s Scriptural Canon
And another interesting nugget:
Moreover, any explanation of
the Christian innovation in adopting the codex instead of the scroll
as the format for books must take into consideration the previous
primary use of the codex as a shipmaster’s almanac and businessman’s
account ledger.
- THE FIRST NEW TESTAMENT Marcion’s Scriptural Canon
Marcion was a shipping merchant...
Secret Alias
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by Secret Alias »

Here's my take. We have inherited a very specific understanding of Christianity associated with Irenaeus in the late second century. Irenaeus was an educated person. He has a very specific point of view which is known through two principle surviving works and a host of fragments. Irenaeus is either the person who introduced the New Testament canon or very close to the man who did. He claims to be close to Polycarp but his rival Florinus the Roman priest was actually closer. Irenaeus claims to continue the tradition of Justin Martyr, another Christian active in Rome from the previous generation but Tatian was actually closer. Both Florinus and Tatian are described as 'Valentinian' in some respects.

Marcion is identified by Irenaeus as visiting Rome in the period Justin was active in Rome - the reign of Anicetus. There are clear crossovers between Marcion's reported appearance in Rome and Hegesippus's description of a certain Marcelina. On some level there is a relationship between Marcion and Marcelina. I don't pretend to know which is the real person but given the fact that Irenaeus seems to be using Hegesippus to establish his Roman succession list (and augmenting it) it would appear that Hegesippus's account of Marcelina was first and 'Marcion' came later - as an invention or adaptation of Hegesippus by Irenaeus.

Justin is said by Irenaeus to have opposed Marcion. The surviving manuscripts of Justin - a single copy - has clear references to 'Marcion.' But they also show signs of being adulterated c. 195 CE - i.e. the time Irenaeus was active. Irenaeus might have been using the adulterated copies of Justin to prove the existence of a 'Marcion' instead of Marcelina in Rome during the reign of Anicetus.

Why would Irenaeus have preferred to promote 'Marcion' rather than Marcelina? It would confirm that women had prominent roles in early Christianity. Jerome when citing the story of Marcelina (now confused into a generic reference to a Marcionite 'woman' who came to Rome) uses it to note this - i.e. that heretics were led by women. A similar inference is made by Tertullian (i.e. that Marcionites couldn't keep their women in order). Marcos the heretic similarly has appeal to female members. There seems to be a pattern where a female-friendly form of Christianity is covered up by Irenaeus into a male religion of Marcion and Marcionism.

It is worth noting that in Tertullian's book Against Marcion there are frequent references to Marcionites being castrated and taking an interest in castration and eunuchs. The ancient world had similar difficulties/challenges as we do today with the 'trans' situation. Is a man who castrates himself a full woman or a man who wants to be a woman. The Golden Ass seems to imply that at least some eunuchs identified as female. Is this part of the confusing Marcelina/Marcion situation? Clement of Alexandria, who cites 'Marcos' passages as scripture or accepted holy writ lives in an Alexandrian community devoted to 'Marcus' - i.e. St Mark. His writings on the one hand acknowledge equality between the sexes while at the same time - in another breath - embracing traditional marriage.

Marcion and Marcelina might all go back to a eunuch Alexandrian priesthood of St Mark in Alexandria - a Christian center we know very little about other than it was often associated with heresy.
perseusomega9
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by perseusomega9 »

Don't forget the early "Stubby Finger" Mark
hakeem
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by hakeem »

Marcionism seemed to have been the most prolific religion for hundreds of years.

Many Christian writers wrote against Marcion from the 2nd centtury even past the 5th century

Justin
Hippolytus
Irenaeus
Origen
Tertullian
Quadratus
Theophilus
Bardesanes
Philip
Modestus
Rhodo
Eusebius
Ephraem the syrian.

Justin's First Apology
And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son.

And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us.......
davidmartin
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by davidmartin »

The gospel of Mark does clearly make one claim - that this thing is not Samaritan
The very first line "It is written in the prophet" stamps it as non-Samaritan and the quote of Jesus from the Psalm at the end - the same
In a Samaritan version of things Jesus could have been the new Moses or Elijah i suppose. But without the psalms or prophets.. what would disappear apart from the proofs? The suffering servant?
I'm not saying the origins are Samaritan but Mark seems to underline that they were not. Of course Samaritans are Jewish though!
lsayre
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by lsayre »

Bernard Muller makes a strong case that the Gospel of Luke was written by a woman.
Stephan Huller makes a strong case that Marcion was actually Marcelina.
The Marcionites are presumed to have used a proto-Luke.
From this might a case be made whereby Marcelina was likely the author of the earliest layer of what became known as the Gospel of Luke.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: The impact of Marcion...

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:17 am Marcion was the first to create a "New Testament".
I suspect that before Marcion the Gospels were rather viewed as non-binding texts and in individual use by more learned Christians, but that they became authoritative scriptures in the process of the confrontation with Marcion and other groups.
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