Outstretched hands and The Cross

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

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mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:44 am the T/R "letter" which I shall continue to call staurogram for ease of use.
I think that's entirely reasonable (I can't remember why I got tied up on the Sampi in my post on the previous page; maybe just thinking far too laterally)
mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:44 am the funny Herodian coin pointing to independence of the T/R "letter"
It certainly shows pre-Christian use of it

mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:44 am Justin Martyr points to it, trying to justify has fable of the cross.
He points to it, but not explicitly, afaik. That's what prompted my recent post, a little about the staurogram, but mostly about the claims Christians did not want to talk about the crucifixion.

It's almost like Justin is either developing or explaining the form of the crucifixion,* or perhaps softening it, starting with this in First Apology 35 -

Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him

* as Barnabas 12.1-4 also seems to be doing, particularly by quoting Isaiah 65.2

''The whole day long have I stretched out My hands to a disobedient people that did gainsay My righteous way''

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mlinssen
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:17 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:44 am the T/R "letter" which I shall continue to call staurogram for ease of use.
I think that's entirely reasonable (I can't remember why I got tied up on the Sampi in my post on the previous page; maybe just thinking far too laterally)
mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:44 am the funny Herodian coin pointing to independence of the T/R "letter"
It certainly shows pre-Christian use of it

mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:44 am Justin Martyr points to it, trying to justify has fable of the cross.
He points to it, but not explicitly, afaik. That's what prompted my recent post, a little about the staurogram, but mostly about the claims Christians did not want to talk about the crucifixion.

It's almost like Justin is either developing or explaining the form of the crucifixion,* or perhaps softening it, starting with this in First Apology 35 -

Jesus Christ stretched forth His hands, being crucified by the Jews speaking against Him

* as Barnabas 12.1-4 also seems to be doing, particularly by quoting Isaiah 65.2

''The whole day long have I stretched out My hands to a disobedient people that did gainsay My righteous way''

I just dunno about the whole stretching business, it's a bit of a stretch

LOL!

https://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/ ... 0),_GM.pdf

Page 43 / 57 there is chapter 55, chapter 35 is 29 / 57.

It is yet another attempt by Sweet Jus to misinterpret the Tanakh in order to "fulfill a prophecy" - I am getting increasingly convinced that it was he who wrote Matthew, as Psalm 22:16 is pretty clear about its context:

For dogs surround me; a band of evil men encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have ... nd_my_feet has a small story about the problematic reading of the MT, but this is "quoting Scripture Matthew-style": a filthy and dishonest attempt at distorting the truth, knowing that only very few will be able to look up the exact verse - this is Matthew, no doubt about it
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MrMacSon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

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mlinssen wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:34 am I just dunno about the whole stretching business, it's a bit of a stretch [...] LOL!
How else might we explain going from the universal terminology of stauros and stauros-ized (ie. staked) to crucified on *The Cross* ?

I think the textual progression suggests the references to outstretched hands, such as in the Odes to Solomon, Barnabas and in Justin Martyr, might be key

ie. it wasn't a wooden shaped cross that was behind the eventual, modern-day imagery, it was likely frequent reflections on the image of Moses of Exodus 17:11 (and subsequent Hebrew Bible tropes of Moses and Joshua)

Glyphs like seem to have been involved, but somewhere sometime somehow things were made simpler and the loop at the top was removed (perhaps as actual 3D crucifixes with the now classical, iconic figure of a man on them began to predominate).
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From stake to cross - a story from Marketing

Post by mlinssen »

"Hey Justin!"
- "Yeah, wassup?"
"Listen man, we have an issue. Ever since you guys decided to market that IC died for our sins, people have been asking us for banners and bumper stickers next to the usual slogans and one liners.
So we've made some rough sketches ourselves with the help of the guys from Design, but no matter what angle we use, it just looks very bad man, it's a really awful sight. I mean I'm fine with it all, but you can't turn this into a poster, now can you?!"
- "How so, what do you mean?"
"Well, we've tried different positions. We've aimed the stake at his belly, heart, and even used the regular place, you know, errr." - "Yeah it's clear, thank you, no need to elaborate."
"Listen I'm not complaining, honestly. Ever since "Mark" decided to support "Paul", revenue has tripled and our customer base increased tenfold, and it only keeps growing - we're really happy, and we get good feedback from our customers. But they even seem to care for IC now, and the other day I had an old lady who was into tears!
I mean, kudos to you all, the success is evident - and that's why we feel that our new icon image would set us back a few steps, even hurt our core business. So please, help us help you - Jesus with a pole up his arse just doesn't make for great Marketing material!"
- "Alright already. Geez! I've barely recuperated from the virgin venture, that cost me a few limbs man. The Jewish proofreaders were outraged but we pushed it anyway, given our customer base makeup. We lost quite a few Judeans but made up for it among the Romans and Greeks, and even attracted some Samarians.
But let me sit on this for a while, as we can't undo his death nor the impaling really, it's not only that we have to stick to "carry the stros" of course, the way in which he dies is also hard to change. I mean we need that final sentence, the outcry, it is what really gives him body, it makes him human, brings him so close to the public one last time - he really needs to continue the talking."
"Yes, my wife is totally hooked on that, she even memorised the Aramaic - smart move to introduce something native, and as yet it has been overlooked that we use Roman words that we don't explain yet Aramaic that we do. People really are cows LOL."
- "Well, yes, but not all cows are people. Listen, I think I see a possibility, as we say nothing about erecting the stake nor what it looks like, how big it is, etc. Oh fuck! What did I just say? "We can't drop the stros?!"
Look at it LOL! Just look at it!!!"



"You're right, that looks like a noose, on a gallow perhaps, but do you think we can make a change that intrusive?"
- "Nonono man, you don't see it. Of course we can't have him hanged, how on earth would he speak, you idiot? No, in stead of putting the wood onto or even into IC, we have to reverse it: we'll put IC on the wood instead! I think I've even gotten some reference cards about that. But look at the shape, it's a stake with another horizontal one, and we could put his arms on those and then just hang him from it all!".
"Errr well, that is novel, I'll give you that. But do you think people will buy it? No one has ever heard of that, and to be honest it's not very economical really, it's a waste of perfectly good wood. And how are you going to affix the horizontal stake onto the vertical one? Man, the vertical one needs to be almost double the size to support that construction!"
- "Oh don't be a party pooper, no one will think twice about details like that and even if they do, they'll all be nitpicking nobs like you and they'll just be ignored, exactly like I'm doing to you now. No man, it's a great idea. Damn I'm good!"
"Well I have to give it to you, you do have a creative mind. But what about the top, the circle?"
- "That doesn't look like a circle at all man, I hope you'll never get to designing anything that needs to last. It's a D, you know, domus dominus - house master, the possibilities are endless. And with a bit of imagination it's the head!".
"No way, you can't affix someone to that and expect him to maintain position, he'll slowly sink down and the head would be well below the place where the two stakes meet, not above it. I dunno man, but your pragmatic insight surely sacrificed a good part of itself to the gawds of creativity."
- "Well we'll give his feet a place to rest, tie those to the wood as well?" "Err no, sorry, unless you tie up his upper legs as well: his knees will just give in and he'll sink anyway. Unless you want a mummy on a stake with all the tying up you have in mind, you better find another idea."
- "Oh shut up, I'm on a rush here. Fucking hell I'm great, now that is a great idea even if I say so myself, screw the details! Now all we need is a name for it all to depart from the bad image of getting it up the ass - yeah let's skip the formalities, why don't we, we have ourselves a new adventure it seems. Do you have any suggestions?"
"I dunno, I think we should leave that as is for now, we can't change too many variables at once or we'll drop points in credibility again, like we did with "Mark" and his lack of name-dropping 'flesh'. I mean he did very well on the spirit theme and all, and covered the body one as well, but the flesh that Paul is so full of - man we were hurt badly there, and we really have to make up for that next time."
- "Geez, one problem at a time man! And stick to the damn topic. You led me there with 'flesh' though, and what is the difference between a live face and a dead skull: the nose! Alright, listen up, I'll write this down, I'm just wrapping up chapter 34 as it is anyway and I'll start a new one on this. But you talk to your guys from Marketing, and include those from Design as well, and tell them this new direction. Make some sketches and make it work, alright?"
"Sure Jus, no sweat man, you're the greatest! I think I can sell this internally, we should be able to do a live test in a week or two, depending. We'll let you know how it goes; will you be joining us this Friday afternoon at the bar? I'll have our specialists give a short demo for everyone present, the atmosphere will be good then. Thanks again man!"
- "You're welcome. I think I should change my name to Ju-spin, what do you think?"
"Man, we've been calling you that behind your back for ages."
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MrMacSon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

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.
The Untitled Text in the Bruce Codex

2.

The second place came into existence which will be called demiurge and father and logos and source and understanding mind and man and eternal and infinite. This is the column, this is the overseer, and this is the Father of the All. This is he upon whose head the aeons are a crown, casting forth rays. The circuit of his face is the unknown in the outer worlds, these who seek after his face at all times, wishing to know it, for his word has reached them, and they want to see him. And the light of his eyes penetrates to the places of the outer pleroma. And the word which comes from his mouth penetrates what is above and below. And the hair of his head is the number of the hidden worlds, and the boundary of his face is the image of the aeons. The hairs of his face are the number of the outer worlds. And the stretching out of his hands is the manifestation of the cross (MS: stauros glyph). The stretching out of the cross is the ennead on the right side and on the left. The sprouting of the cross is the incomprehensible man. This is the Father. This is the source, which wells up from the silence.

This is he who is sought in every place. And this is the Father from whom, like a light-spark, the monad came forth, beside which all the worlds are as nothing. . . . It is this which moved all things with its shining. And they received gnosis and life and hope and rest and love and resurrection and faith and rebirth and the seal.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/untitl.htm


.
The Ennead or Great Ennead was a group of nine deities in Egyptian mythology worshiped at Heliopolis: the sun god Atum; his children Shu and Tefnut; their children Geb and Nut; and their children Osiris, Isis, Seth, and Nephthys. The Ennead sometimes includes the son of Osiris and Isis, Horus.
  • Osiris and Isis represent fertility and order, while Set and Nephthys represent chaos to balance out Osiris and Isis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennead

Ennead is a borrowing via Latin of the Greek name Enneás (Ἐννεάς), meaning "the Nine".
.


.
11

... the command came forth through the mystery hidden in the first Father - from whom the mystery came forth - that his Son should establish the All once again in his gnosis, in which the All is contained'.

Then Setheus sent a creative word with which were many powers having crowns upon their heads. And their crowns sent forth rays, and the shining of their bodies enlivened ' the place to which they came. And the word which came forth from their mouths was eternal life. And the light which came forth from their eyes was to them rest. And the movement of their hands was their flight to the place from whence they came forth. And their looking into their faces was the gnosis in relation to themselves. And their journey to themselves was their turning inwards once again.

And the stretching out of their hands was their setting up. And the hearing of their ears was the perception which is in their hearts.

And the uniting of their members was the gathering together of the dispersed of Israel. And the holding of them was their fixing to the word. And the cipher which was in their fingers was the number or reckoning which came forth according to what is written: "He who numbers the multitudes of stars and gives names to them all." And the whole unity of the creative word happened with those that came in the movement which happened.

http://www.gnosis.org/library/untitl.htm
.

eta [May 2022]:

https://www.academia.edu/36569258/The_M ... ruce_Codex
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun May 15, 2022 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

Justin invented the cross. I just have told already earlier about the roman execution, which I researched. There is evidence from skeletons. They did not put the stake up your ass. Your elbows were tied to the back and up with a rope onto a small piece of wood. This was put over the stake or on the stake. Your feet were nailed to the stake on both sides of it. The nails went through the heelbones. So you stood, you did not hang. Evidence was found in Israel and in Italy.

The first pilgrim or tourist there was the empress Helena, the mother of Constantine. Accompanied by church people of course. She found everything. There is a report from her visit by some church type. In it we read (ancient writing) that she found of course the cross (other word for stake) and she found THE TWO NAILS and A PIECE OF THE ROPE. Evidently some people still lived in reality instead of being hysterical Christians. The two nails went with her: one was reworked into Constantine's helmet, the other one into the piece of metal in his horse's mouth. The report is on the net, I suppose anybody can find it.
So, now we all know where the nails went. The roman death penalty was still known in the 4th century.
Obviously Justin wanted it differently. I guess it had to be "predicted" again from the LXX. Therefore he forged the OT twice. And then he had it. He had the nerve to refer to the so-called acts of Pilatus as witness, while he was quoting from a psalm. He must have known that there were no acts of Pilatus. Certainly the psalm became popular, because we find that back in the crucifixion story of the synoptics. With thanks to Justin Martyr.
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

Of course I did not mean that the staurogram played no role. The staurogram from Greece in the form of a cross stimulated Justin to think out his forgeries, and start using them. I am convinced of that. The staurogram is used in manuscripts. It is THE way to come from stauros to cross.
The forged psalm 22 from Justin we find back in the synoptic gospels. Maybe there was originally written stauros or the staurogram, but there was SAID cross in the churches. The gospels do not tell what exactly happens. I have no idea how they did it. With thanks to the gospel of Thomas.
From 400 on they started pushing the use of the cross. This has to do IMO with the translation of stauros to crux. I found the discussion between Justin and his friend very funny. It is probably the discussion between Irenaeus and his friends.
In the meanwhile the person it is about died on a stake. The gospels on this most important point for the catholic church are therefore forged/invented, and not real.
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by GakuseiDon »

cora wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:16 pmIn the meanwhile the person it is about died on a stake. The gospels on this most important point for the catholic church are therefore forged/invented, and not real.
In what way were they "forged/invented" on that particular point? The Greek versions of the Gospels all seem to use the word "stauros". If they were forged, why didn't they use the Greek word for "cross [as an item used in crucifixions]", which doesn't seem to exist?
cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

Stauros means stake. That is it. When translated it should still mean stake. So wherever you see, hear, or read Cross etc., it is a forgery.
Justin invented it. If you care to read the whole thread you can see how he did it. Among other things he forged a psalm, which was then used in the gospels. The greek word for cross did not exist indeed, because there was no roman death penalty on a cross, only on a stake.
Therefore Jesus died on a stake. Cora.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

cora wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:46 pm Justin invented it.
  • I'm not sure what you mean by "it" Cora, but Justin may only have contributed to perceptions of the shape of the implement used ie. rather than a simple stake/stauros.

    Another dimension to representation of the concept/s of crucifixion in those days, ie. in antiquity, are the roles of other symbols such as the staurogram, the Ankh, the Chi-Rho symbol, etc, etc.,
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