Outstretched hands and The Cross

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

I do not have a problem with the fake cross being replaced by the true stake. Is there a problem with that?
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by GakuseiDon »

cora wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:01 pmThis appeared around 200 when greek was going out of fashion to be replaced by latin. But the bible was in greek, and the Mass probably also. So who would understand what was being said?
The Eastern Roman Empire, which used Koine Greek for the next 1000 years until the end of the Byzantine Empire.

According to the Wiki article:

Second-century writers who speak of the execution cross describe the crucified person's arms as outstretched, not attached to a single stake: Lucian speaks of Prometheus as crucified "above the ravine with his hands outstretched". He also says that the shape of the letter T (the Greek letter tau) was that of the wooden instrument used for crucifying.[31] Artemidorus, another writer of the same period, says that a cross is made of posts (plural) and nails and that the arms of the crucified are outstretched.

I've clipped the relevant passage from the works of Lucian: https://archive.org/stream/lucianha01lu ... t_djvu.txt

Men weep and bewail their lot and curse Cadmus over and over for putting Tau into the alphabet, for they say that their tyrants, following his figure and imitating his build, have fashioned timbers in the same shape and crucify men upon them; and that it is from him that the sorry device gets its sorry name (stauros). For all this do you not think that Tau deserves to die many times over? As for me, I hold that in all justice we can only punish Tau by making a T of him.

Lucian says that "stauros" gets its name from Tau, possibly for comedic effect. But it indicates that "stauros" included the Tau shape.

Your thoughts?
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:14 pmLucian says that "stauros" gets its name from Tau, possibly for comedic effect. But it indicates that "stauros" included the Tau shape.
A century before Lucian, Seneca the Younger describes crucifixions as happening in a variety of different ways:

Seneca the Younger, Moral Essays 6.20.3a, to Marcia on consolation: 3a I see before me crosses [cruces] not all alike, but differently made by different peoples: some hang a man head downwards, others force a stick upwards through his groin, others stretch out his arms on a gibbet [alii brachia patibulo explicuerunt]. I see cords, scourges, and instruments of torture for each limb and each joint.

Josephus agrees with this variety of methods:

Josephus, Wars 5.11.1 §451: 451 So the soldiers, out of wrath and hatred, nailed those they caught to the crosses, one after one way and another after another, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great that room was wanting for the crosses and crosses wanting for the bodies. / 451 προσήλουν δὲ οἱ στρατιῶται δι᾽ ὀργὴν καὶ μῖσος τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι πρὸς χλεύην, καὶ διὰ τὸ πλῆθος χώρα τε ἐνέλειπε τοῖς σταυροῖς καὶ σταυροὶ τοῖς σώμασιν.

There is also, a bit later:

Pseudo-Manetho, Apotelesmatica 4.198 apud Martin Hengel, Crucifixion in the Ancient World, page 9: 9 .... Punished with limbs outstretched, they see the stake as their fate; they are fastened (and) nailed to it in the most bitter torment, evil food for birds of prey and grim pickings for dogs. ....

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GakuseiDon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by GakuseiDon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:32 pmA century before Lucian, Seneca the Younger describes crucifixions as happening in a variety of different ways:
:notworthy: Thanks Ben. I think that puts the matter to rest. (The cheque is in the mail! :cheers: )
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:02 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:32 pmA century before Lucian, Seneca the Younger describes crucifixions as happening in a variety of different ways:
:notworthy: Thanks Ben. I think that puts the matter to rest. (The cheque is in the mail! :cheers: )
I am a bit skeptical about my prospects of receiving the check (= the boring American spelling of "cheque"), not having sent you my mailing address, but thanks! :cheeky:
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Geocalyx
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by Geocalyx »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:10 pm
Geocalyx wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:31 pm It all works if you consider stuff like Bruce Codex being a FORGERY in the name of THEOLOGY and speak like Trump to all that don't.
When is the Bruce Codex said to be forged?
In another topic, where I brought it up as an example of a description of a cross instead of a stake in a rather ancient manuscript that was never distributed by the Church.
geocalyx: actually I don't know what the Bruce Codex is, only that it is in the gnostic library. It is supposed to be gnostic therefore. So I read a large part of it. The 2 pieces which are presented here are not the whole writing at all. They are not representative. They have been picked out. Gnosticism is a spiritual religion. It is about the unknowable father, the pleroma, aeons. It is high up in the universe.
Somebody described with hair, a mouth, arms etc is NOT gnostic. Stretched out arms is NOT gnostic. It is actually Christian forgery IN a gnostic writing, written in a way to make it look gnostic. Something like Israel cannot appear at all. What is it supposed to mean?
You are right: it is a forgery in the name of (Christian) theology.
Bruce Codex can be seen as a "forgery" this way and even as a joke, indeed. The problem is - it has never been endorsed by anyone Christian by a long shot. What exactly is being forged here, then? Historical documents that confirm Jesus died the way the Bible claims, but differently? Because forgery is a somewhat specific word.

Also, be aware that you're accusing it of being a forgery on the basis of what you perceive those egyptian texts to be, and you've gotten that perception from the books of the Holy Church. Whose word you now trust.

cora, plz do some more homework. You're not the first or only one saying meanings of the words were altered to fit the new Christian world, so to paraphrase Adams, don't make the same mistake many capable men make, when they assume everyone else to be idiots.
cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

Geocalyx,
I saw this Bruce Codex for the first time and noticed some things. By mistake I thought I was the first one. How the hell should I know that you are an expert on this, and have been writing about this long before? If I had known that, I would not have put my time in it. I am not looking for extra work.
cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

gakuseidon, glad you are finally happy. Outstretched does not have to be to the sides, it can be also outstretched in the length, as I said. The arms were stretched out above, and with a rope tied to a small piece of wood. This can be meant by the T. But a T is not a cross as you can see.
Furthermore I see only wrong translations: cruces (stakes) as crosses. Stauroi (stakes) as crosses. It must have been translated in Christian times.
The last one has stake. People are fastened and nailed, just like I said.
What I would like to know: where do all the carpenters with their instruments come from, when the roman army is busy with conquering a city, who have to make all those 100s or 1000s of crosses?

So, I stick to my findings in bones/skeletons. Otherwise I would have to declare the emperor Constantine, his mother the empress Helena, and the person who wrote the report all totally delusional and lying. Which I won't.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by GakuseiDon »

cora wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:54 pmgakuseidon, glad you are finally happy. Outstretched does not have to be to the sides, it can be also outstretched in the length, as I said.
I learned something that I didn't know before which makes it a win, and that always makes me happy! So I thank you for that since you were the one to bring up the interesting topic. And I take your point that Jesus may not have been killed on a cross-shaped or T-shaped stake, and I'll keep it in mind when rereading the old texts in their English translation. Good discussion! Thanks cora :cheers:
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MrMacSon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:32 pm
Josephus, Wars 5.11.1 §451:
So the soldiers, out of wrath and hatred, nailed those they caught to the crosses, one after one way and another after another, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great that room was wanting for the crosses and crosses wanting for the bodies. /
προσήλουν δὲ οἱ στρατιῶται δι᾽ ὀργὴν καὶ μῖσος τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι πρὸς χλεύην, καὶ διὰ τὸ πλῆθος χώρα τε ἐνέλειπε τοῖς σταυροῖς καὶ σταυροὶ τοῖς σώμασιν.

This isn't a big deal at all, just a source of intrigue; but I can't see ''nailed those they caught to the crosses, one after one way" in the Greek.

I can get most of the words, but τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι doesn't seem to represent everything that Ben has underlined, and I'm not having a dig at Ben - that Greek is std for Wars 5.11.1 §451. Moreover, I can't see a word that could represent 'crosses' in that passage -

δι᾽
ὀργὴνκαὶμῖσος
τοὺς
ἁλόντας
ἄλλον ἄλλῳ
σχήματι
πρὸςχλεύην
by way of
wrathandhatredthe[y]/that/
who [were]
to be takenanother after anotherin/as a figurewith
jest

Perhaps

"..soldiers, by way of wrath and hatred, took another after another figure, by way of jest .."

ETA: or

"..soldiers, by way of wrath and hatred, they/who took figure after figure, by way of jest .."
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