Outstretched hands and The Cross

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:26 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:32 pm
Josephus, Wars 5.11.1 §451:
So the soldiers, out of wrath and hatred, nailed those they caught to the crosses, one after one way and another after another, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great that room was wanting for the crosses and crosses wanting for the bodies. /
προσήλουν δὲ οἱ στρατιῶται δι᾽ ὀργὴν καὶ μῖσος τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι πρὸς χλεύην, καὶ διὰ τὸ πλῆθος χώρα τε ἐνέλειπε τοῖς σταυροῖς καὶ σταυροὶ τοῖς σώμασιν.

This isn't a big deal at all, just a source of intrigue; but I can't see ''nailed those they caught to the crosses, one after one way" in the Greek.
Here:

nailed = προσήλουν
those (whom) they caught = τοὺς ἁλόντας
to the crosses = well spotted, MrMacSon; this phrase is not present within this clause in the Greek but rather implied by προσήλουν and added by Whiston for clarity (the crosses are explicit as τοῖς σταυροῖς and σταυροί in the next clause)
one after one way and another after another = ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι

I can get most of the words, but τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι doesn't seem to represent everything that Ben has underlined....
That is correct. It is only part of it. The rest is not contiguous with τοὺς ἁλόντας ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι. Greek word order and English word order are two very different things, especially when it comes to Greek authors with literary aspirations, like Josephus, who is nothing compared, say, to Thucydides in this regard. In this case, προσήλουν is separated from the rest of what in English is better laid side by side.
Moreover, I can't see a word that could represent 'crosses' in that passage.
If you mean "in that clause," then correct. The words for the crosses come in the next clause (same sentence, though). Whiston was just clarifying. I probably should have removed this anticipatory instance and reworded slightly, and I had already rearranged two of Whiston's phrases to avoid superfluous commas (simply because I find them annoying), but I was working quickly.
Perhaps

"..soldiers, by way of wrath and hatred, took another after another figure, by way of jest .."

ETA: or

"..soldiers, by way of wrath and hatred, they/who took figure after figure, by way of jest .."
Neither of these represents the Greek when it comes to the clause with "figure" in it.

Perhaps you would prefer Thackeray, who translates, "The soldiers out of rage and hatred amused themselves by nailing their prisoners in different postures; and so great was their number that space could not be found for the crosses nor crosses for the bodies."
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MrMacSon
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:03 pm
προσήλουν = nailed

  • Yes.


    those (whom) they caught = τοὺς ἁλόντας

    ah, of course: I had 'taken' and should have had caught


    (the crosses are explicit as τοῖς σταυροῖς and σταυροί in the next clause)

    Yes, I got that ..


    one after one way and another after another = ἄλλον ἄλλῳ σχήματι

    aha.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:03 pm Greek word order and English word order are two very different things, especially when it comes to Greek authors with literary aspirations, like Josephus, who is nothing compared, say, to Thucydides in this regard. In this case, προσήλουν is separated from the rest of what in English is better laid side by side.
Yep, I figured that was a large part of it, but προσήλουν / nailed and σταυροῖς and σταυροί / crosses are a long way from each other in the Greek.

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:03 pm
[box=]to the crosses ... is not present within this clause in the Greek but rather implied by προσήλουν and added by Whiston for clarity[/box]

Perhaps you would prefer Thackeray, who translates, "The soldiers out of rage and hatred amused themselves by nailing their prisoners in different postures; and so great was their number that space could not be found for the crosses nor crosses for the bodies."
Yes, it seems to perhaps be both a function of perhaps clumsy Greek and licence taken by Whitson. Cheers.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

[a Mixed Bag]



The mid-second-century diviner Artemidorus spoke of crucifixion thus:

"Since he is a criminal, he will be crucified in his height and in the extension of his hands" - "κακούργος δὲ ὦν σταυρωθήσεται διὰ τὸ ὕψος καὶ τὴν τῶν χειρῶν ἔκτασιν" (Oneirocritica 1:76)




Lucian of Samosata (121-180) described the crucifixion of the mythical Prometheus as Prometheus being nailed to a precipice on the Caucasus "with his hands outstretched, from crag to crag" - "ἐκπετασθεὶς τὼ χεῖρε ἀπὸ τούτου τοῦ κρημνοῦ πρὸς τὸν ἐναντίον" (Prometheus on Caucasus, 1-2)

Lucian,1 Celsus (as quoted by Origen),2 and Origen himself, for the crucifixion of Jesus,3,4 all use the verb "ἀνασκολοπίζω", which apparently originally meant "to impale".
  1. De morte Peregrini, 11:11
  2. Εἶτα φησὶν ὁ Κέλσος: Τί φησὶ καὶ ἀνασκολοπιζομένου τοῦ σώματος; (Contra Celsum, II:36)
  3. "καὶ Κράξας φωνῇ μεγάλῃ ἀφῆκε τὸ πνεῦμα", προλαβὼν τοὺς ἐπὶ τῶν ἀνασκολοπιζομένων δήμιους, ὑποτέμνοντας τὰ σκέλη τῶν σταυρουμένων" (Contra Celsum, III, 32).
    • [interestingly, σταυρουμένων seems to be translated as 'punishment' in the English version of the Catholic Encylcopedia ]
  4. Contra Celsum, III, 32



The shape of the 'gibbet' is compared by Origen to that of the letter Τ.5

Pseudo-Lucian too, in the final words of his Trial in the Court of the Vowels,6 identifies the shape of the σταυρός with that of the letter Τ.




Acts of Peter, of the second half of the second century has, in 38:

"What else is Christ, but the Word, the sound of God? So that the Word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man."

Note the shifts there: Christ initially = the Word, the Sound of God; the Word becomes the upright 'beam' [gotta yet check if that's a stauros / σταυρός]; but the sound becomes 'the nature of man' which crosseth the upright / the Word ...

... then, oh boy, a/the 'cross-tree' becomes 'the conversion and repentance of man' ...

... Lotsa Shape-Shifting, huh ??? ...
.
cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

OF COURSE: AGAIN TWO INTELLECTUALS WHO TRANSLATE STAUROS WITH CROSS.
And acting as if it is the most natural thing in the world. How cosy. They still have not understood that stauros does not mean cross at all.
It is only translated that way of course. I mean, we KNOW the romans did this because of what happened to Jesus, no matter what the greek or latin says, we just translate cross. But since both gentlemen know greek, I do not understand how they can talk that way, and go on with it.
Josephus is not to blame. He writes stauros, which is the roman death-penalty. I cannot help it. Does the Christian image gets disturbed when there is no cross? Or do I detect a small learning disability?
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

1. extension of hands does not have to be sideways of course. I read stauros here. As I told before you were stretched in the length.
2. origen c.s. only make the normal punishment worse.
3. the letter T is allright. You were fastened by a small piece of wood on top. Not by nails.
4. The word WORD is from Irenaeus. This was written after that, after 200. I would not trust anything catholic regarding a crucifixion.
By the way CRUCIFIXION means literally PUTTING ON A STAKE. (crux means stake).
Are we not done yet?
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

cora wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:22 pm 1.[a] extension of hands does not have to be sideways of course.
  • Sure, but many would think of arms extended sideways as an act of submission; as a first action before an embrace, etc.

[1.b.] I read stauros here. As I told before you were stretched in the length.
  • Yes, there are some images and implications of that

2. origen c.s. only make the normal punishment worse.
  • Que?

4. The word WORD is from Irenaeus ...
  • The Word—Logos—was popularised by Philo of Alexandria
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

Romans 10:21 (the last verse of Romans 10):

.
21 But concerning Israel he [Isaiah] says,

...“All day long I have held out my hands
......to a disobedient and obstinate people.” . . . . [Isaiah 65:2]
.

Previously,

Romans 10:17ff -

.
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

...“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
......their words to the ends of the world.”. . . . [Psalm 19:4]

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

...“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
......I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”. . . . [Deut 32:21]

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

...“I was found by those who did not seek me;
......I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.. . . . [Isaiah 65:1]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

...All day long I have held out my hands
......to a disobedient and obstinate people.”. . . . [Isaiah 65:2]
.

cora
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

Macson,
What is this supposed to mean? Is I have held out my hands from Jesaja from the 6th century BC predicting something? Are you out of your mind? Do you believe the OT predicted Jesus? Are you not well? Prophets do not exist. All prophesies are written after the fact. If you believe someone can predict over 600 years, you are either a jew, or very credulous. The Logos became Word with a capital W, not the normal word word of course.

Or do you want me to believe Paul is quoting the OT all the time. Romans is the most forged letter of Paul. All this OT crap comes from Irenaeus. How often should I say it. Irenaeus works for the church (170) and Paul belongs to the gnostics (100). Therefore Paul is forged that much to fit the church that it is difficult to find Paul back at all in his letters. It is going to take a 100 years to get them clean, if it can be done at all. Paul does not know the OT well, because he is not a jew. If you read Galatians you can find this out. There is a problem between him and the people he comes from. It cannot be difficult. The second visit is a forgery, because Paul never goes back. If you don't get it you do not know the difference between greeks and jews. It can only be found in Galatians, the first letter.
Paul is starting a gnostic religion. It is not about Jesus Christ, because he does not exist yet. Jesus Christ is a forgery. God the father is the gnostic god, the son who was there from the beginning is the Logos (there he is), and there is the Holy Spirit. THIS IS ALL GNOSTIC. Taken in for the church by Irenaeus. We have a gnostic trinity. You will have to get used to the fact that the NT consists of fake and forgery and stealing from the gnostics. It was done by Irenaeus between 165 and 185, after which the catholic church could start in 200. Who was there before? The gnostics from Paul on from 90 on. Who was Jesus Christ? A forgery from Paul. Everything there is to be said about the origin HAPPENS IN THE 2ND CENTURY. The 1st century is just a diversion by Irenaeus. Who is a 100 times smarter than anybody I know. But I have found a few small mistakes by him, and therefore I know what I know.
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by cora »

Macson,
I thought you knew what a stauros and a crux were? Which are of course translated by Christians as crosses, what else? But Josephus writes himself stauros, it is in all the letters of Paul, and Seneca himself writes crux. The ancient writers do not lie, the translators do. And Ben lies. And you accompany him and are very happy about it. I could not believe it. This is really disappointing.
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Re: Outstretched hands and The Cross

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:30 pm
Acts of Peter, of the second half of the second century has, in 38:

"What else is Christ, but the Word, the sound of God? So that the Word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man."

Note the shifts there: Christ initially = the Word, the Sound of God; the Word becomes the upright 'beam' [gotta yet check if that's a stauros / σταυρός]; but the sound becomes 'the nature of man' which crosseth the upright / the Word ...
.
Apparently The majority of the text has survived only in the Latin translation of the Vercelli manuscript, under the title Actus Petri cum Simone, so one may not find chapter 38 in the Greek.

Apparently it is the first record of the tradition that St. Peter was crucified head-down.

The excerpt above is from the end of the chapter, chapter 38. The entire chapter and the preceding and following chapters are interesting too-

.
And Peter when he came unto the place stilled the people and said: Ye men that are soldiers of Christ! ye men that hope in Christ! remember the signs and wonders which ye have seen wrought through me, remember the compassion of God, how many cures he hath wrought for you. Wait for him that cometh and shall reward every man according to his doings. And now be ye not bitter against Agrippa; for he is the minister of his father's working. And this cometh to pass at all events, for the Lord hath manifested unto me that which befalleth. But why delay I and draw not near unto the cross

XXXVII. And having approached and standing by the cross he began to say: O name of the cross, thou hidden mystery! O grace ineffable that is pronounced in the name of the cross! O nature of man, that cannot be separated from God! O love (friendship) unspeakable and inseparable, that cannot be shown forth by unclean lips! I seize thee now, I that am at the end of my delivery hence (or, of my coming hither). I will declare thee, what thou art: I will not keep silence of the mystery of the cross which of old was shut and hidden from my soul. Let not the cross be unto you which hope in Christ, this which appeareth: for it is another thing, different from that which appeareth, even this passion which is according to that of Christ. And now above all, because ye that can hear are able to hear it of me, that am at the last and final hour of my life, hearken: Separate your souls from every thing that is of the senses, from every thing that appeareth, and does not exist in truth. Blind these eyes of yours, close these ears of yours, put away your doings that are seen; and ye shall perceive that which concerneth Christ, and the whole mystery of your salvation: and let thus much be said unto you that hear, as if it had not been spoken. But now it is time for thee, Peter, to deliver up thy body unto them that take it. Receive it then, ye unto whom it belongeth. I beseech you the executioners, crucify me thus, with the head downward and not otherwise: and the reason wherefore, I will tell unto them that hear.

XXXVIII. And when they had hanged him up after the manner he desired, he began again to say: Ye men unto whom it belongeth to hear, hearken to that which I shall declare unto you at this especial time as I hang here. Learn ye the mystery of all nature, and the beginning of all things, what it was. For the first man, whose race I bear in mine appearance (or, of the race of whom I bear the likeness), fell (was borne) head downwards, and showed forth a manner of birth such as was not heretofore: for it was dead, having no motion. He, then, being pulled down -who also cast his first state down upon the earth- established this whole disposition of all things, being hanged up an image of the creation (Gk. vocation) wherein he made the things of the right hand into left hand and the left hand into right hand, and changed about all the marks of their nature, so that he thought those things that were not fair to be fair, and those that were in truth evil, to be good. Concerning which the Lord saith in a mystery: Unless ye make the things of the right hand as those of the left, and those of the left as those of the right, and those that are above as those below, and those that are behind as those that are before, ye shall not have knowledge of the kingdom.

This thought, therefore, have I declared unto you; and the figure wherein ye now see me hanging is the representation of that man that first came unto birth. Ye therefore, my beloved, and ye that hear me and that shall hear, ought to cease from your former error and return back again. For it is right to mount upon the cross of Christ, who is the word stretched out, the one and only, of whom the spirit saith: For what else is Christ, but the Word, the sound of God, so that the Word is the upright beam whereon I am crucified. And the sound is that which crosseth it, the nature of man. And the nail which holdeth the cross-tree unto the upright in the midst thereof is the conversion and repentance of man.

XXXIX. Now whereas thou hast made known and revealed these things unto me, O Word of life, called now by me wood (or, Word called now by me the tree of life), I give thee thanks, not with these lips that are nailed unto the cross, nor with this tongue by which truth and falsehood issue forth, nor with this Word which cometh forth by means of art whose nature is material, but with that voice do I give thee thanks, O King, which is perceived (understood) in silence, which is not heard openly, which proceedeth not forth by organs of the body, which goeth not into ears of flesh, which is not heard of corruptible substance, which existeth not in the world, neither is sent forth upon earth, nor written in books, which is owned by one and not by another: but with this, O Jesu Christ, do I give thee thanks, with the silence of a voice, wherewith the spirit that is in me loveth thee, speaketh unto thee, seeth thee, and beseecheth thee. Thou art perceived of the spirit only, thou art unto me father, thou my mother, thou my brother, thou my friend, thou my bondsman, thou my steward: thou art the All and the All is in thee: and thou Art, and there is nought else that is save thee only ...

via http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-bo ... -of-peter/
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