“In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
gryan
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by gryan »

davidmartin wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:54 pm Yes i wasn't aware of this and it is clearly different, with according to the flesh being in a worldly sense

the same concept is found in the odes as well
"to Him I offer the offering of His thought. For His thought is not like the world, nor like the flesh, nor like them who worship according to the flesh"
I haven't studied the odes, but the verse you quoted has a parallel in 1 Cor 10:18,

"Consider Israel according to the flesh (βλέπετε τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα): Are not those who eat the sacrifices fellow partakers in the altar?"
davidmartin
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by davidmartin »

gryan wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:00 am
davidmartin wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:54 pm Yes i wasn't aware of this and it is clearly different, with according to the flesh being in a worldly sense

the same concept is found in the odes as well
"to Him I offer the offering of His thought. For His thought is not like the world, nor like the flesh, nor like them who worship according to the flesh"
I haven't studied the odes, but the verse you quoted has a parallel in 1 Cor 10:18,

"Consider Israel according to the flesh (βλέπετε τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα): Are not those who eat the sacrifices fellow partakers in the altar?"
I think you're right. The Odes appear to, like Paul, see this sacrificial system passing away "The offering of the Lord is righteousness, and purity of heart and lips". One theory is, in response to loss of the temple or before in response to messianic age.
This maybe connects to Hebrews "Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name"

I don't want to corrupt your thread but having another witness to Pauline type theology improves Paul's own standing (ie he didn't 'invent' Jesus nor was he radically departing from the Jerusalem church). I usually focus on his lack of info on historical Jesus but haven't had much chance to affirm his closeness to the movement using the odes as a witness. i'll leave it at that, back to Galatians and Hebrews and original subject maybe a question - does your theory have any theological implications?
gryan
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by gryan »

davidmartin wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:39 am
gryan wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:00 am
davidmartin wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:54 pm Yes i wasn't aware of this and it is clearly different, with according to the flesh being in a worldly sense

the same concept is found in the odes as well
"to Him I offer the offering of His thought. For His thought is not like the world, nor like the flesh, nor like them who worship according to the flesh"
I haven't studied the odes, but the verse you quoted has a parallel in 1 Cor 10:18,

"Consider Israel according to the flesh (βλέπετε τὸν Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα): Are not those who eat the sacrifices fellow partakers in the altar?"
I think you're right. The Odes appear to, like Paul, see this sacrificial system passing away "The offering of the Lord is righteousness, and purity of heart and lips". One theory is, in response to loss of the temple or before in response to messianic age.
This maybe connects to Hebrews "Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name"
RE "sacrifice of praise" Heb 13:15

Following James Swetman (Hebrews, An Interpretation) the Sitz im Leben for the writing of Hebrews may have been a Eucharist celebration, a Christianization of OT physical bloody ritual--"a sacrifice of Praise."

Heb 13:15

δι’ αὐτοῦ οὖν ἀναφέρωμεν θυσίαν αἰνέσεως διὰ παντὸς τῷ Θεῷ, τοῦτ’ ἔστιν καρπὸν χειλέων ὁμολογούντων τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ. Heb 13:15

Through him let us offer up as sacrifice of praise (θυσίαν αἰνέσεως, LXX, Ps. 49) regularly (διὰ παντὸς LXX Ps. 49)

Through a Google search, I found this commentary on the Ps. 49 which I will quote at length:

"The role of covenant in Ps 49 has been underdeveloped in scholarship, even though it plays a significant role in the message the psalmist is conveying.... a discussion of Ps 49’s perspective on covenant is necessary to understand the psalmist’s call for the “sacrifice of praise” (θυσίαν αἰνέσεως) in vv. 14 and 23....

In Ps 49:8, Yahweh notes what Israel is not rebuked for, namely that they are indeed performing the sacrifices according to the covenant stipulations. The burnt offering was offered on the altar whose fire was burned “continually” (διὰ παντός); thus Israel was offering up sacrifices to Yahweh according to what was prescribed in the law. Yet, Yahweh’s rebuke is that he will not “accept” (δέξομαι) these sacrifices..

Although the Israelites were offering up these sacrifices according to the law, they were doing so with wrong motives. This is Yahweh’s initial critique in Ps 49 of Israel—they have faulty worship. While they obey this aspect of the law in outward actions, their motives reveal that they are not truly worshipping Yahweh. Yahweh then commands in vv. 14–15 what Israel ought to do instead. Right worship is to offer to Yahweh the “sacrifice of praise” (θυσίαν αἰνέσεως). To understand the reference to the “sacrifice of praise” and its juxtaposition with the sin offering, the “sacrifice of praise” in Leviticus must first be analyzed.

3.3 ΘΥΣΊΑΝ ΑἸΝΈΣΕΩΣ IN LEV 7 AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE FOR PS 49
The “sacrifice of praise” (θυσίαν αἰνέσεως) is one of three kinds of “peace” offerings described in Lev 7:11–36..."

https://mlpp.pressbooks.pub/isbn9781732 ... lm-49-lxx/

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RE: "Yahweh’s rebuke is that he will not 'accept' (δέξομαι) these sacrifices..

I find it interesting that the Galatians did “accept” (δέξομαι) Paul "as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus" Gal 4:14. Thus, that language had possible ritual sacrifice connotations which Hebrews may have been building on.
davidmartin
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by davidmartin »

yes thanks Gryan i'm showing my ignorance of Hebrew scriptures i didn't know about that either!
that ties in with the finale of that particular ode i quoted from (20)
"For His glory will go before you; and you shall receive of His kindness and of His grace; and you shall be anointed in truth with the praise of His holiness. Praise and honor to His name"
'glory' and 'praise' are the same word in Syriac/Aramaic so it's tying back to the Hebrew 'sacrifice of praise' here as well, like Hebrews is
gryan
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by gryan »

Thesis outline by key texts

“In the flesh” --
Re-reading Paul and “seeing” Jesus "in the days of his flesh"

Heb 2:10 Jesus was made perfect through suffering
Echoes a rereading of "Now in the flesh... Being made perfect" in Gal 3:3

Heb 2:11 Jesus was not ashamed to call his God-given children “brothers”
Echoes a rereading of how "Being called brothers" happens in the sphere of the flesh in Gal 5:13

Heb 2:18 (Cf 4:14) Jesus was tempted just like those he came to help
Echoes a rereading Gentile Temptation in the apostle’s flesh in Gal 4:12-15

Heb 3:2 Jesus was faithful
Echoes a rereading of "In the flesh, in Faithfulness" in Gal 2:20

Can you catch a glimpse of this (possibly) authentic, ancient vision?
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

gryan wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:29 pm
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:22 am
gryan wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 1:24 am
Instead of "faith in”: Galatians 2:20

...
It is grammatically possible that Paul was saying that “in the flesh” and in the “now”, his “life” was manifesting the “faithfulness of" God’s Son.
Mmh, I would tend to think that it's grammatically not impossible, but that the chiastic syntax and the position of the words speak rather against it.

Χριστῷ συνεσταύρωμαι
.... ζῶ δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγώ,
.... ζῇ δὲ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός
.... ὃ δὲ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί
.... ἐν πίστει ζῶ
τῇ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ
.... τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ
.... παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.
With Christ I have been crucified
.... I live however no longer an I
.... it lives however in me Christ

.... what however now I live in flesh
.... in faith I live

the (one) of the son of the God
.... the one having loved me and
.... having given up himself for me.

The thesis has several stages for each of the "flesh" passages in question. At stage one, in the immediate context of the verse, all I need for my thesis is that "it's grammatically not impossible". I find that in use, and in ever widening circles of context, the grammar begins to sound familiar.
I have to apologize to you. My reservations related to other things you wrote. Regarding the faith in Galatians 2:20, I fully agree with you. It's not Paul's own "faith in", but the faith of God's son which Paul reenacts.
gryan
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by gryan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:29 am My reservations related to other things you wrote. Regarding the faith in Galatians 2:20, I fully agree with you. It's not Paul's own "faith in", but the faith of God's son which Paul reenacts.
Good to know! I had been confused about what you were saying.

RE: ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ἐν πίστει ζῶ...

I had been thinking the chiastic structure--with the key words flesh and faith side by side in the center-- worked in favor of my rereading. Could you say a bit more about your reservations about my thesis (summarized below) as it relates specifically to the grammatical sense of Gal 2:20?

------------------------
Thesis: Gal 2:20 echoed in Hebrews

In Hebrews, we "see" Jesus as:

1. "faithful" (τὸν Ἀπόστολον καὶ Ἀρχιερέα τῆς ὁμολογίας ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν, πιστὸν ὄντα τῷ ποιήσαντι αὐτὸν Heb 3:1-2)

2. "in the days of his flesh" (ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τῆς σαρκὸς Heb 5:7).

My sense of an echo of Paul in Hebrews is reinforced when I ponder Paul's claim in 2 Cor 4:11 concerning "the life of Jesus": "For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus (ἡ ζωὴ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ) may also be revealed in our mortal flesh (ἐν τῇ θνητῇ σαρκὶ ἡμῶν)..."

In Galatians, Paul writes "Become as I", this parallels Corinthians 11:1, "Become imitators of me, as I also Christ." The logic of seeing Jesus in Paul's self portrait is connected with imitation of Christ through imitation of Paul.
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Gryan,
Gal 4:14 καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε (this is the critical text)

τὸν πειρασμόν μου Ψ Chrys pesh hark 1611 Byz; C, P46
τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν 1739, A,  33, B, D* F G d b ×vg

"The small change in the pronoun—from “your” to “my”—has a large effect" wrote Stephen Carlson (The Text of Galatians and Its History). That is so true!
I am confused:
- In your thesis, you work with "my" and not "your".
- All major English translations have "my" and not "your". This is rather strange they went for "my" when the earliest Greek major codexes (A, B, D) except C went for "your" instead of "my". I tried to check with Laparola, but an error prevents it to show any variants.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:50 am to Gryan,
Gal 4:14 καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε (this is the critical text)

τὸν πειρασμόν μου Ψ Chrys pesh hark 1611 Byz; C, P46
τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν 1739, A,  33, B, D* F G d b ×vg

"The small change in the pronoun—from “your” to “my”—has a large effect" wrote Stephen Carlson (The Text of Galatians and Its History). That is so true!
I am confused:
- In your thesis, you work with "my" and not "your".
- All major English translations have "my" and not "your". This is rather strange they went for "my" when the earliest Greek major codexes (A, B, D) except C went for "your" instead of "my". I tried to check with Laparola, but an error prevents it to show any variants.

Cordially, Bernard
The minor reading concerns the temptation (πειρασμόν) not the flesh. It's "your" or "my" temptation, but always "my" flesh.
gryan
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Re: “In the flesh”: Recovering the lost grammar of Paul in Galatians in light of echos in Hebrews

Post by gryan »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:50 pm
Bernard Muller wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:50 am
- In your thesis, you work with "my" and not "your".
The minor reading concerns the temptation (πειρασμόν) not the flesh. It's "your" or "my" temptation, but always "my" flesh.
Yes, this can be confusing.

Gal 4:14

καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου

"and your temptation in my flesh" is difficult to understand! So according to the logic of textual criticism, the more sensible sounding textual variant, "and my temptation in my flesh" (KJV) is more likely to be a result of a scribal activity.

Modern translations cover up the awkwardness of "your temptation in my flesh" by turning it into something like "though my condition was a trial to you".

In my journey with this text, I memorized the phrase τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου (Lit. "your temptation in my flesh"), and it really grabbed me. Literally for more than a year, I would wake up nearly every morning at around 3am with this text on my mind. I remember the first time I saw the text of manuscript P46, and there it was--the variant: τὸν πειρασμόν μου, ("my temptation in my flesh"). Since P46 is our oldest manuscript of Galatians, dated around the year 200, I felt compelled to really seriously consider whether it might be original. For one thing, it makes more sense in relation to 1 Cor 12:7, "a thorn was given to me in my flesh." The "thorn" was presumably his problem, not his audiences! Right? (I question presumption now, but that's another topic.) The "temptation" could have been his "fleshly weakness." It makes so much sense on the face of it.

But the whole sentence changed when I seriously got into the logic of Paul preaching to the Galatians because of their "fleshly weakness--not is own!

Then at some point it dawned on me that since 1) "weakness" and "temptation" are both accusative nouns connected by "and", and 2) since the meanings of the two words which can be combined into one unified idea of "weakness and temptation", then 3) it is possible that the one preposition "because of" governs two objects: "because of your fleshly weakness... and [because of] your temptation..."

The problem of reading "your temptation in my flesh" took on a new shape: What was their temptation doing in the apostle's flesh? Eventually I realized that the problem could be resolved in connection with Paul's earlier claim: literally, "I also as you" i.e. "I also [have become] as you"..."your temptation in my flesh."

That scenario presumes two kinds of flesh "your flesh" ie Gentile fleshly weakness vs. 13 and "my flesh" ie presumably morally stronger Jewish flesh. These ideas are mirrored in Ephesians where there are three kinds of flesh--Gentile, Jewish and the "flesh" that breaks down the barriers of hostility, that of Jesus.

Eph 2:11-16
"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility."

I think the author of Hebrews was reading Galatians together with other Pauline texts including Ephesians (A clue: note the odd change of word order from "flesh and blood" in Galatians to "blood and flesh" in both Ephesians and Hebrews). I also think the author of Hebrews took Paul seriously when he wrote that in Christ, "there is not Jew or Greek" and all are Abraham's seed. When the author of Hebrews talks about "Abraham's seed" as connected by "blood and flesh" bonds, I think he is talking about this in the sense of Galatians where everyone in Christ Abraham seed. I think the author of Hebrews expects his readers to know Galatians, and in the spirit of Galatians, the division between Jew and Gentile, circumcised and uncircumcised is entirely erased. Jesus tasted death for all flesh ("lets not even mention un/circumcision any more" says Hebrews, by erasure).

Your comments?
Last edited by gryan on Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:34 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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