What was Jerome talking about??

[Roger Pearse]

I don't know the specifics of Josephus; but no doubt he (or someone he used) calculated that these events belong to this time.

In the last line where you say "no doubt he" --- are you talking about Eusebius?

Sorry yes, Eusebius was whom I had in mind.

[Roger Pearse]

I do want to thank you for your input on Eusebius and how confusing a lot if the Greek literature was back then. It makes it easier to see how a number of events that actually may not have happened at the same time could get lumped together. Perhaps that is what happened here!?

Entirely possible. Basically the Greeks had no reliable way to date events, until Eusebius created his tables of dates and events for the whole world, all linked together. All the Greeks could do was tie things to this year of the reign of king X (bearing in mind that kings ascended to the throne at different times of the year, and some ruled for less than a year), or to the year in which A and B were magistrates, or to the Olympiad. If something took place in a barbarian kingdom, they had few ways to connect whatever date was used locally to their own times. Eusebius identified some "join points" and worked out numbers for the rest. He makes a rather jaundiced comment somewhere "before this point all the dates of the Greeks are rubbish" or something like that, which is undoubtedly the product of finding the numbers didn't work. He used Manetho; and he started with the 15th year of Abraham, the earliest date he felt he could date reliably from any source he had. Later chronologists were less critical, and started with the creation (!)

Of course there was also the fun detail that numerals are not well preserved in ancient texts, and never were.

[Kris]

I might have a little more insight as to why Jerome may be conflating Josephus' temple voices with the time of Jesus' death. I ran across a Christian site that talks about the history and legends of the temple rending-- and one part of it gets into Jerome and his damaged lintels. It appears he may be getting some of this from Isaiah-- and also the "Gospel of the Hebrews". It appears there may have been a tradition of angels going in and out of the temple making pronouncements and such. Here are a few excerpts from the site:

fores et audita maior humana vox excedere deos): at the same moment the mighty stir of their going was heard. Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world. This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity. (LCL)
This text seems to be dependent upon Josephus (J.W. 6.5.3 §§288–309),58 who lists eight wonders that occurred within the decade prior to the destruction of the temple, which he saw as God-given portents of that impending tragedy: there was a sword-shaped star in the sky; a comet that continued for a year; a bright light that shone around the altar and the sanctuary at 3 a.m.; and chariots and armies seen in the clouds throughout the country. There were also signs within the temple itself. A cow was seen giving birth to a lamb; the enormous brass eastern gate of the inner court, which could hardly be moved by twenty men, was seen opening by itself at midnight; the priestss in the inner court hearing a collective voice at Pentecost, “We are departing from here” (i.e. the sanctuary); years of “Woe!’s against Jerusalem and sanctuary uttered by Jesus bar Ananias (whom the Jerusalem authorities seized, beat, and handed over to the Romans to be put to death, only to have him released by the governors as mad)” (LCL).
Details of these fascinating texts cannot be explored here, save to com- ment that perhaps they reflect the notion that behind military battles lay a struggle of the respective deities. Scholars have frequently noted that in antiquity divinities gave extraordinary signs at the death of noble figures. For example, Raymond Brown notes the lunar eclipse on the night when Herod the Great put Matthaias to death (Josephus, Ant. 17.6.4; §167) and a voice from heaven declared the heavenly destiny of a Jewish martyr (cf. b. Ber. 61b; b. Abod. Zar. 18a).59 Similarly, in Greco-Roman thought, there were eclipses at the deaths of Romulus and of Julius Caesar (cf. Virgil, Georgics 1.472–90, esp. 466–88). Upon the death of Hercules, the doors of Jupiter’s temple swung open.60 A comet appeared at the death of Claudius, as well as showers of blood, a miraculous thunderbolt, and the opening of the temple of Jupiter (Cassius Dio, History 61.35.1).61 The opening of doors could also be seen as welcoming worshippers to the temple of the deity, as may have been the case with Artemis.62
Also likely dependent on Josephus, Jerome provides interesting develop- ments of the veil tradition, most capably surveyed in recent years by Raymond Brown. Brown recognizes that the six references to the veil in Jerome’s writing cover a span of almost 30 years (between ad 380 and 409) and, he suggests, are inconsistent and “may reflect a growing tradition in Jerome’s own mind.”63 First, in Epistle 18a,64 Jerome, commenting on the theophany of Isa 6:4, quotes a Greek father (Gregory Nazianzus?) who sees Isaiah’s shaking of the lintels fulfilled in the destruction and burning of Jerusalem and its temple. Jerome indicates that others held that the temple lintel was overturned when the veil was torn, at which time utter chaos ensued and a heavenly voice announced departure. He says nearly the same thing in his Epistle 46,65 yet he suggests that the voice announcing departure was spoken at the same time that Christ was crucified. In his Commentarium in Matt. 4,66 Jerome makes reference to a gospel in Hebrew characters, to which he often refers.67 In that gospel, he says, “We read that the temple lintel of infinite size was shattered and fractured.” Apparently the broken lintel then tore the veil. (This may be what is depicted in this scene in Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ.) Jerome then repeats the Josephus reference about the outcry of the angelic hosts. In Epistle 12068 Jerome again cites Josephus and his Hebrew gospel, where we find “not that the veil of the temple was rent, but that the temple lintel (superliminare) of great size was heaved over.”69 Coming back to Isa 6:4, he again refers to the overturning of the lintel of the Herodian temple, adding that all its hinges were broken and the whole scene fulfilled Jesus’ threat in Matt 23:38 that the “house” would be left desolate, an event which he says took place 42 years after the Passion (Commentarium in Isaiam 3).70 Later in the same writing, Jerome again sees the siege on Jerusalem as relevant and again looks to Josephus concerning the cry of the “angelic hosts who presided over the temple” (Commentarium in Isaiam 18 [on Isa 66:6]).71 Other early Christians have followed Josephus and Jerome,72 particularly Tertullian (Adv. Iudaeus 13.15), who says of the rending of the veil (velum scissum) text that the Holy Spirit (an angel?) which dwelt in the temple prior to Christ’s death departed afterwards: “He deserted the Temple [leaving it] desolate, rending the veil and taking away from it the holy spirit.”73 Brown cites the curious Transitus Mariae 10 which, though difficult to date, has the women who ministered in the Temple flee into the holy of holies during the crucifixion darkness: “There they see an angel come down with a sword to rend the veil in two and hear a loud voice uttering woe against Jerusalem for killing the prophets. When they see the angel of the altar fly up into the altar canopy with the angel of the sword, they know ‘that God has left His people.’ ”74
Another tradition, though probably apocryphal,75 recounts an episode involving the Roman general Titus at the time of his utter defeat of the Jews. B. Git. 56b claims that upon his victory Titus said, “Where is their God, the rock in whom they trusted [Deut 32:37]?” Then “the wicked Titus who blasphemed and insulted Heaven” committed two atrocities in the tem- ple: First, he “took a harlot by the hand and entered the Holy of Holies and spread out a scroll of the Law and committed a sin on it.” After this, he “took a sword and slashed the curtain (twkrp; cf. Sifre Deut. §328 [on Deut 32:38]). Miraculously blood spurted out, and he thought that he had slain himself.” Some understand this as a euphemism for slaying God.76 The rabbis then cite Ps 74:4 as a prediction of the mockery displayed by Titus, and then Ps 89:9, praising Yahweh for his forbearance in not striking that “wicked man” dead. The text goes on: “Titus further took the curtain and shaped it like a basket and brought all the vessels of the Sanctuary and put them in it, and then put them on board ship to go and triumph with them in his city.” This is cited as a fulfillment of a prediction in Eccl 8:10. Regardless of the authenticity of this record, it nonetheless reveals what is perhaps a significant picture of the role of the veil in rabbinic temple ideology. It shows that the destruction of the temple was, in hindsight, seen by the rabbis as fulfilling OT prophecies down to these minute points. To be sure, however, such predictions were also found prior to the event.77 Nevertheless, it seems clear that the descrip- tion of Titus “slashing” the curtain and blood “spurting” out is a figurative expression, for it seems to have been sufficiently intact to serve as a basket for his alleged carrying away of the other cultic articles. The tradition of Titus cutting the veil may derive from a tradition common with that from Lives of the Prophets, which says the curtain will be “torn into small pieces” (Liv. Pro. 12:11).78 Josephus makes no mention of their being cut.

Thoughts?

[Kris]

The entire article can be found here:

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... urtner.pdf

[Kris]

Just following up on this --- seems that some early Christian writers felt that the spirit of god had to depart-- do you think I am on the right track here with jerome? None of the gospels mention voices crying out when Jesus died other than Jesus himself. Later-- I think Josephus used the symbology to show the "spirits" departing right before the war broke out. Jerome then retrojected back to Jesus time. Any thoughts?

[DCHindley]

Just following up on this --- seems that some early Christian writers felt that the spirit of god had to depart-- do you think I am on the right track here with jerome? None of the gospels mention voices crying out when Jesus died other than Jesus himself. Later-- I think Josephus used the symbology to show the "spirits" departing right before the war broke out. Jerome then retrojected back to Jesus time. Any thoughts?

Just a quick comment.

From reading Jason BeDuhn's book on The First New Testament he seems to think that early Christians in the western empire tended to identify their faith with Judaism (Peter & Paul in Rome at the same time, that sort of stuff) while Christians of the eastern empire (Asia minor, Hellas, Macedon, Syria) tended to want to distance themselves from Judaism, and that it was not until 3rd or 4th century that western Christians severed the connection decisively.

I think that there are clear cut indications in the NT Gospels and the letters of Paul that clearly show an animosity towards Judeans (wherever they may reside = "Jews") and a bit of gleeful taunting as if to say "Nahh nyahh you blew it! Now God favors us gentiles, you loosers! That will teach you not to revolt and slaughter us!"

Of course, the referent is the Jewish rebellion of 66-73 and perhaps the EgyptianCypriot Judean revolt of the 110s and the Bar Kochba revolt of the 130's, indicating that the NT Gospels and Pauline books as we have them received their final forms no earlier than the late 1st century.

Josephus mentions (or invents) these prodigies as a way to show that the populace was mistaken to revolt against Rome and were foolish not to listen to their teachers and the elite classes, who wanted to mend relations. I'd say that by the mid 2nd century proto-orthodox Christians were willing to distance themselves from Judeans completely, although perhaps willing to let them repent, until the 3rd century, when they gave up on them as a lost cause. Judeans, on the other hand, would think that the Christians were the interlopers trying to claim illegitimate rights of succession. Eusebius, Jerome, etc, just exaggerated the signs mentioned by Josephus for polemical purposes.

DCH

[MrMacSon]

Josephus mentions (or invents) these prodigies as a way to show that the populace was mistaken to revolt against Rome; and were foolish not to listen to their teachers and the elite classes, who wanted to mend relations.

"these prodigies" - you mean Peter & Paul?

[Leucius Charinus]

I am researching some things that I find confusing. One is a quote that Jerome makes in his Chronicles (and I think these are directly taken by Eusebius).

Are you aware that Jerome was the pupil of Saint and "Pontifex Maximus" Damasus who became the Pope of Rome by defeating other claimants to the title by a pitched battle of armies in the streets of Rome?

[DCHindley]

Josephus mentions (or invents) these prodigies as a way to show that the populace was mistaken to revolt against Rome; and were foolish not to listen to their teachers and the elite classes, who wanted to mend relations.

"these prodigies" - you mean Peter & Paul?

I should have said "signs."

But one definition of prodigy is "an amazing or unusual thing, especially one out of the ordinary course of nature. e.g., "omens and prodigies abound in Livy's work"

DCH