How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

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hakeem
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by hakeem »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm
hakeem wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:16 pm The use of the term "Sea of Galilee" appears to be evidence [among other things] that NT Gospel writers were non Jews and not familiar with the region.
It's seems rather evident that non Jews (Strabo, Pliny) always used the term "lake" or "body of water" (1 Maccabees, Josephus, GLuke too) but not "sea". The use of the word "sea" seems to presuppose knowledge of the LXX. The term "Sea of ​​Galilee" is likely a Markan invention to enlarge his Galilee theme.
We know the author of GMark seem to have no idea what he was talking about. The Markan author believed the Decapolis was on the coast.

Mark 7:31
And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, he came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.

Charles Wilson
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Charles Wilson »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:50 pm @Charles Wilson
I'll just say this. Paul the Apostle did lots of traveling by boat around the Aegean Sea, going to and from Troas to Greece and various places. Paul's use of a boat makes a lot of sense.
Yes, which makes this entry more than a little humorous:

Polybius, Histories 150:

"Their successors, Gnaeus Servilius and Gaius Sempronius, put to sea with their whole fleet as soon as it was summer and after crossing to Sicily proceeded thence to Libya, and sailing along the coast, made a number of descents in which they accomplished nothing of importance, and finally reached the isle of the Lotus-eaters, which is called Meninx and is not far distant from the lesser Syrtis. Here, owing to their ignorance of these seas, they ran on to some shoals, and, on the tide retreating and the ships grounding fast, they were in a most difficult position. However, as the tide unexpectedly rose again after some time, they managed with difficulty to lighten their ships by throwing overboard all heavy objects..."

Hmmm...Have we seen this before?

Acts 27: 14 - 20 (RSV):

[14] But soon a tempestuous wind, called the northeaster, struck down from the land;
[15] and when the ship was caught and could not face the wind, we gave way to it and were driven.
[16] And running under the lee of a small island called Cauda, we managed with difficulty to secure the boat;
[17] after hoisting it up, they took measures to undergird the ship; then, fearing that they should run on the Syr'tis, they lowered the gear, and so were driven.
[18] As we were violently storm-tossed, they began next day to throw the cargo overboard;
[19] and the third day they cast out with their own hands the tackle of the ship.
[20] And when neither sun nor stars appeared for many a day, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope of our being saved was at last abandoned.

Ahhh, Syrtis, where everyone runs aground and throws all equipment over the side so they can free their ships. Sorta' like the kid with the mask and snorkel. He's never without golf balls since, in five minutes at the golf course where the hole has a lake around it, he can find all he needs. We need to fund an Expedition to Syrtis to recover all of the debris from all the ships that ran aground there. Mebbe we'll find an autographed copy of John-Mark, the Book.

"But Wait!!!...There's more!!!"

The Moffatt Translation tells the better Tale and perhaps tomorrow I'll fill in the blanks. Look at verse 17: "...after hoisting it up, they took measures to undergird the ship..." There is mischief here and Moffatt dutifully reports that an excellent Translation is given with the undergirding of the ship being provided with ropes.

SOOOO WHAT?!??

Tacitus, Histories, Book 3:

Anicetus also set fire to the fleet, and, as the sea was not guarded, escaped, for Mucianus had brought up to Byzantium the best of the Liburnian ships and all the troops. The barbarians even insolently scoured the sea in hastily constructed vessels of their own called "camarae," built with narrow sides and broad bottoms, and joined together without fastenings of brass or iron. Whenever the water is rough they raise the bulwarks with additional planks according to the increasing height of the waves, till the vessel is covered in like a house. Thus they roll about amid the billows, and, as they have a prow at both extremities alike and a convertible arrangement of oars, they may be paddled in one direction or another indifferently and without risk..."

Pretty neat, huh? Combine the Camarae story with running aground at Syrtis and "Paul" suddenly has a real adventure.
Acts has much more to say about this story but perhaps later.

[Edit Note: From a Moffatt Translation Online ( https://archive.org/details/newtestamen ... 2/mode/2up ) p. 183:

"...once it was hoisted aboard, they used ropes* to undergird the ship, and in fear of being stranded on the Syrtis they lowered the sail and lay to..."]
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MrMacSon
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

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Several scholars have seen echoes of the OT and the chaotic sea motif (Genesis 1, Job, the Psalms, etc) in the story of Jesus stilling the storm. In particular see Elizabeth Struthers Malbon, “The Jesus of Mark and the Sea of Galilee”, JBL 103/3 (1984), pp. 363-377. She sees the influence of Psalm 107 in the story as Paul D also notes -
The Sea as a Symbol of Chaos in the Old Testament

God’s control over the raging, chaotic sea is a common theme in the Old Testament, from the creation myths of Psalms and Isaiah to the crossing of the sea in Exodus. Elizabeth Malbon (see bibliography) gives some examples she thinks are relevant to Mark’s portrayal of the sea, notably LXX Psalm 106 (MT Psalm 107):

Those who used to go down to the sea [LXX: thalassa] in boats, doing business on many waters—it was they who saw the deeds of the Lord and his wondrous works in the deep. He spoke and the tempest’s blast stood, and its waves were raised on high. […] they cried to the Lord when they were being afflicted, and out of their anguish he brought them, and he ordered the tempest, and it subsided to a breeze, and its waves became silent. (Psalm 107:23-25, 28-29)

Malbon writes:

Mark presupposes the connotation of the sea as chaos, threat, danger, in opposition to the land as order, promise, security. …The threatening power of the sea is manifest, but the power of Jesus’ word is portrayed as stronger; Jesus stills the storm and walks on the water, overcoming the threat of the sea; Jesus causes the swine possessed by unclean spirits to rush to their deaths in the sea (5:23a, b), turning the threat of the sea to his own purpose. (p. 376)

Mark’s reliance on Psalm 107 is also suggested by his odd mention of other boats:

On that day, when evening had come, he said to them, “Let us go across to the other side.” And leaving the crowd behind, they took him with them in the boat, just as he was. Other boats were with him. (Mark 4:35-36)


Those who used to go down to the sea in boats, doing business on many waters—it was they who saw the deeds of the Lord and his wondrous works in the deep. (Psalm 107:23)

The possibility that Mark’s use of the sea is symbolic rather than historical is strengthened by the fact that his itinerary of sea crossings don’t always make geographical sense as described. There is also the story of the Gerasene demoniac that reimagines Gerasa, a city over 45 km from the lake in reality, to be right by the shore; and the route by which Jesus returns to the sea Mark 7:31 (“Then he returned from the region of Tyre by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the midst of the Decapolis.”) is just plain impossible if taken literally. (Nineham draws attention to these and other geographical problems with Mark, and concludes that the author was not well acquainted with Palestine. See Nineham, p. 40.)

https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/ ... f-galilee/

Elizabeth Struthers Malbon, “The Jesus of Mark and the Sea of Galilee”, JBL 103/3 (1984), pp. 363-377.

D.E. Nineham, Gospel of Saint Mark (Pelican Gospel Commentary), 1968.
Also
Why the Sea of Galilee?

One possibility is that the Messiah was expected to restore northern Israel (the region of Galilee) — Gentile territory ever since the Assyrian conquest — to the Jews. The most famous Old Testament test to convey this idea is Isaiah 8:23-9:1:

In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulon and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who lived in a land of deep darkness—on them light has shined.

The Greek Septuagint is worded somewhat differently and can be interpreted as a future prophecy:

Do this first, do it quickly, O country of Zebulon, land of Naphtali, by way of the sea, and the rest who inhabit the seashore and beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations, the district of Judea. O you people who walk in darkness, see a great light! O you who live in the country and in the shadow of death, light will shine on you!

Thus, Jesus’ association with Galilee and “the sea” becomes a means of identifying him as the Messiah. (Eidsvåg, p. 177) And even though the Septuagint clearly intended the Mediterranean Sea, the early Christian community associated it with Lake Gennesaret. Mark may be making a veiled reference to Isaiah 9:1 when, in his second and final reference to the “Sea of Galilee” in Mark 7:31, he has Jesus make a journey from Tyre to Sidon (taking Isaiah’s “way of the sea” to the idealized northern boundary of Zebulon) and then through Naphtali and the Decapolis (Isaiah’s “land beyond the Jordan”) to the sea (Notley p. 187).

Matthew makes the Isaianic connection more explicit, for when he copies the arrival of Jesus in Galilee and the beginning of his ministry by the sea from Mark, he inserts the aforementioned quotation from Isaiah as a prophecy fulfilled by Jesus (Matt. 4:15-16)³. It is no surprise, then, that Matthew embraces Mark’s use of the term “Sea of Galilee”.⁴

https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/ ... f-galilee/
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by MrMacSon »

A few passages in the LXX refer to Galilee as being inhabited by Gentiles. Isaiah 8.23 - 9.6 and Ezekiel 47.1-12 depict Galilee 'of the Gentiles' as specifically appointed to receive salvation in the messianic age and, further, as a place which will be one of the first to experience God's deliverance.

Isaiah 8.23 and Joel 4.4 indicate Galilee was a Gentile land which conspired with other Gentile lands against Judah. Joel 4.4 and 1 Maccabee 5.15 also use the term 'Galilee of the Gentiles' and 1 Macc 5.21 reports than Simon Maccabaeus did battle with Gentiles who lived in Galilee.

Mark 1.17, with its call to Simon and Andrew in Galilee to become fishers of men, certainly seems to be based on Ezekiel 47.10.

Ezekiel 47.1-12 outlines how the prophet beholds a river issuing from under the threshold of the house of the Lord in Jerusalem. It is a river with trees of healing upon its banks, and it gives life where ever it courses. Fishers standing upon its banks are to catch a great multitude of fish (v. 10), and it was flowing towards Galilee (v. 8).

Mark 14.28 and 16.7 -bidding the disciples to return to Galilee after the resurrection- outlines missionary obligation along lines suggested in Ezekiel 47.1-12 taken together with Isaiah 8.23 - 9.6.

See Galilee and Galileans in St Mark's Gospel by G. H. Boobyer
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by MrMacSon »

Isaiah 8:23 of Hebrew texts = Isaiah 9:1 of non-Hebrew texts.

Beyond 8:23-91 / 9:1-9:2 (NIV) -

.
Isaiah 9 of non-Hebrew texts

1 Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past He humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future He will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—

.2... The people walking in darkness
....... have seen a great light;
......on those living in the land of deep darkness
....... a light has dawned.

[vv. 1 and 2 lightened/greyed b/c these vv. have been addressed above & to contrast below]

.3... You have enlarged the nation
....... and increased their joy; ..........[including the sea in Jesus' ministry would 'enlarge the nation']1

.....they rejoice before you
........ as people rejoice at the harvest,
......as warriors rejoice
........ when dividing the plunder.

.4... For as in the day of Midian’s defeat,
........ you have shattered
......the yoke that burdens them,
........ the bar across their shoulders,
........ the rod of their oppressor.

.5... Every warrior’s boot used in battle
....... and every garment rolled in blood
......will be destined for burning,
........ will be fuel for the fire.


.6... For to us a child is born,
........ to us a son is given,
........ and the government will be on his shoulders........[classic 'prophecy' that would've appealed to Christian authors, along with v.1 ]

......And he will be called
........ Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
........ Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

.7... Of the greatness of his government and peace
........ there will be no end.

......He will reign on David’s throne
........ and over his kingdom,
......establishing and upholding it
........ with justice and righteousness
........ from that time on and forever.

......The zeal of the Lord Almighty
...... will accomplish this.
.

[eta] 1.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:20 pm The term "Sea of ​​Galilee" is likely a Markan invention to enlarge his Galilee theme.
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

hakeem wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:08 pm
We know the author of GMark seem to have no idea what he was talking about. The Markan author believed the Decapolis was on the coast.

Mark 7:31
And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, he came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.

There may be a lot to say about Mark and geography, especially with regard to Mark 7:31, but the translation of ὅριον (horion) with "coast" is a mistranslation.

ὅριον means literally "border" or "boundary" and "the borders of" can mean "region" or "district". Matthew used it in GMatthew 2:16 for the region of Bethlehem and Luke in Acts 13:50 for the region of Antioch of Pisidia, both places without a coast. For "coast" (shore, beach) they used "αἰγιαλός" and "παράλιος".
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Cast Your Loaf Upon The Water And it Shall Come Back A Thousand Fold But Who The Hell Wants A Thousand Loaves Of Soggy B

Post by JoeWallack »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:05 am I count 6 times. Am I right or did I miss something?

Furthermore, I understand that "Sea of Galilee" was a very unusual name for this body of water. Does anyone have sources that identify the typical name for this body of water? Is there any evidence that anyone used the term "Sea of Galilee" before Mark?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eFYXWh2_DA

JW:
Unlike Jesus, boy did you come to the right place. From The Skeptical Critical Commentary:

Kartagraphy Markoff. Did "Mark" Get Any Geography Right?
Good information Ben, thanks. I know you are not interested in trying to determine whether or not there is "error" but for those that are obviously the criteria that you select to determine error is an important factor. My standard for error is a modern one. Is the information significantly inaccurate based on modern standards. Strangely here, I have to confess that based on modern standards I do not think there is error. The Christian Bible says "Sea of Galilee" and that is generally how this location is described in our time. Regarding the generally incorrect modern usage of "Sea" in the title, generally the modern reader knows that it is not technically a sea so there is no significant communication error to the modern audience.

If you change your standard of error though to the time of the author, here maybe 100 CE, then I think there is error. The description "Sea of Galilee" would have been otherwise unknown at the time and Greek did distinguish then between seas and lakes. Also, the average reader of the time, outside of Israel and most likely Roman, would not have been familiar with the specific geography of Israel and likely would have thought "sea" meant "sea". Ironically, one tactic of Apologists is to try to avoid modern standards for error determination and switch to ancient standards. Here though the modern standard is no error while the ancient standard is error.

Another possible criterion here for setting is the time and location that the narrative is describing. Here, 30ish Israel. The Jewish Bible does use the word "sea" for it but not Galilee. Since Hebrew of the time did not distinguish between "sea" and "lake" and a Jewish reader of the time would probably know based on the combination of a body of water and "Galilee" what was being described and where it was, under this criterion there is also probably not error. This gets back to Ben's point above that the Greek genitive (sea) of GMark, a Semitic usage, defends against error under this criterion as "sea" is understood as genitive and the main identifier is the accompanying word "Galilee".
The surrounding Thread is probably the best body of commentary ever written on the subject.

Also:
For those fans of G(spot)Markan geography such as DtC & GwB, Superior Skeptic Paul Davidson (Tenorikuma) has written a, as Larry David would say, pretty pretty good article on "Mark's" (author) use of the phrase "Sea of Galilee":

Did Mark Invent the Sea of Galilee?

Paul's emphasis is on why "Mark" chose the phrase "Sea of Galilee" while my emphasis in this Thread is if the offending phrase is an error. Paul's research indicates that contemporary Jewish writings generally did not distinguish between salt (sea) and fresh (lake) water while Greek writings did. An interesting read (not necessarily funny).
JW:
The gloss bottom line is that Bilezikian, author of The Liberated Gospel: A Comparison of the Gospel of Mark and Greek Tragedy, probably the best commentary on GMark ever written, is likely correct, that GMark as a whole was largely figurative, and the use of seas in it was meant to symbolize the mostly cultural division between Jews and Gentiles. if you accept that GMark was a fish story, like me and Papias, then the use of "sea" is just style and not an error. For those increasingly fewer, who take GMark as literal factual actual history, no tricks, like no one in the Trump family and belief in election fraud, then "Mark's" use of "sea" was error (and speaking of the election, now that it is over, for those who would still like to see more of Rudolph Giuliani's Act, he will be appearing all week on top of the Washington Monument with a high powered rifle).


Joseph

LAUGHTER, n. An interior convulsion, producing a distortion of the features and accompanied by inarticulate noises. It is infectious and, though intermittent, incurable. Liability to attacks of laughter is one of the characteristics distinguishing man from the animals.

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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by DCHindley »

My guess would be as often as a boat was, as Odysseus called it, "well benched."

Not sure if that refers to the construction (comfy for the rowers' rear-ends) or to the condition it was in (bench was worn down by constant use so as to become comfy to the rowers' rear-ends).

It could also be intended to mean a "properly outfitted" ship.
Homer, Odyssey (English) 2.390 Then she drew the swift ship to the sea and put in it all the gear that well-benched ships carry [τά τε νῆες ἐύσσελμοι φορέουσι].
We do have archeological evidence as to what a fishing boat was built like in the "Sea" of Galilee. How hungry or desperate for cash would you have to be to put your butt-hocks onto one of their benches and row? <The unstated rhetorical answer is "pretty ...">

But what about the women who gut the fish after the net is hauled ashore, who smoke the fish over a charcoal fire?

To accept this derail, press "1"

To reject this derail, press "2"

If you have insomnia, then re-read the previous posts endlessly to figure out what they really "say."

DCH
Charles Wilson
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Another alternative popped into my head a little while ago:

You are required to attend Temple Services in Jerusalem for Passover and the week following (The Feast, which Mark also gets wrong).

Mark 3: 7 - 10 (RSV):

[7] Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea, and a great multitude from Galilee followed; also from Judea
[8] and Jerusalem and Idume'a and from beyond the Jordan and from about Tyre and Sidon a great multitude, hearing all that he did, came to him.
[9] And he told his disciples to have a boat ready for him because of the crowd, lest they should crush him;
[10] for he had healed many, so that all who had diseases pressed upon him to touch him.

This applies to the Mishmarot Priesthood as well. To set this up, let's look at Josephus describing Cestius and the 12th Legion:

War..., 2, 19, 1:

"But when Cestius had marched from Antipatris to Lydda, he found the city empty of its men, for the whole multitude (28) were gone up to Jerusalem to the feast of tabernacles; yet did he destroy fifty of those that shewed themselves, and burnt the city, and so marched forwards; and ascending by Bethoron, he pitched his camp at a certain place called Gabao, fifty furlongs distant from Jerusalem..."

"(28)" refers to Note 28 (in Part), which reads: "Here we have an eminent example of that Jewish language, which Dr. Wall truly observes we several times find used in the sacred writings; I mean where the words all or whole multitude, &c. are used for much the greatest part only; but not so as to include every person, without exception; for when Josephus had said, that the whole multitude [all the males] of Lydda were gone to the feast of tabernacles, he immediately adds, that however no fewer than fifty of them appeared, and were slain by the Romans..."

Uzi Leibner, Settlement and History in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Galilee, ISBN-13: 978-3161498718, ISBN-10: 3161498712 , examines Settlements on the ground in Galilee that show the Hasmoneans assigned these towns to the 24 Mishmarot Priestly Groups. There are Lists found in several Synagogues in these Settlements that match up the various Settlements with the Mishmarot Groups found in 1 Chronicles 24. It's there, on the ground.

Which leads to the following idea: It is common - in today's world, at least - to refer to very large crowds of people as, "A Sea of People". I would like to accept that idea as Markan, having been written with that Intentionality 2000 years ago. If the Argument stops here, with no other mention of "Sea" => "Lotsa' People", then, "Oh, Well". However:

Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea, and a great multitude from Galilee followed...

If it does work as Markan, then "...of Galilee" carries a meaning that:

"All of Members of the Priesthood who lived in the Settlements in The Galilee came to Passover and the Feast for the Coup against the Romans and the Herodians. They are here to participate in the Re-Dedication of a New Temple." "Sea of Galilee" would be stated as a matter of Pride.

Matthew 26: 69, 73 (RSV):

[69] Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard. And a maid came up to him, and said, "You also were with Jesus the Galilean."
...
[73] After a little while the bystanders came up and said to Peter, "Certainly you are also one of them, for your accent betrays you."

There were a lot of Galileans there. A Sea of Galileans, a Sea of Galilee.

CW
hakeem
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Re: How many times does Jesus get in a boat?

Post by hakeem »

The confusion in translation seem to come from the fact that the author of GMark was not familiar with the region. The body of water was not known as the sea of Galilee but a lake called Gennesareth or Genesara.

https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-3.htm

Josephus in War of the Jews 3.10.
Wars of the Jews 3.10.1
This lake is called by the people of the country the Lake of Gennesareth.
Wars of the Jews 3.10. 7.
Now this lake of Gennesareth is so called from the country adjoining to it.
Wars of the Jews 3.10.8.
The country also that lies over against this lake hath the same name of Gennesareth
Pliny the Elder in Natural History stated that there was a lake in Galilee known as Genesara.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/57493/5 ... 7493-h.htm

Pliny Natural History
For this reason it is that, as soon as ever the valleys through which it runs afford it the opportunity, it discharges itself into a lake, by many writers known as Genesara..
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