Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

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rgprice
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Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by rgprice » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:47 am

Are the Johannine Epistles a reaction to Marcionism.

If they aren't a reaction to Marcionism, then what are they are reaction to?

Are there any good resources that address this topic?

perseusomega9
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:41 am

They're definitely against docetism, which could include Marcionism.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:57 am

to rgprice,
For 1 John, the reaction was against Ebionites and Jewish Christians. That's what I concluded in http://historical-jesus.info/jnorig.html#author.

2 & 3 John were written much later.

Cordially, Bernard

rgprice
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by rgprice » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:14 pm

In reading 1 John, it seems quite interesting that there are so many similarities between 1 John and the Gospel of John, yet 1 John doesn't seem to know any actual information from the Gospels.

I wonder if 1 John may have been written by the same person who wrote the Gospel of John, prior to his writing of the Gospel. Has anyone proposed this? What analysis is out there regarding a shared authorship between the Johannine epistles and GJohn?

Interestingly, neither 1 John nor GJohn talk about Jesus being born. Both attest that be was made flesh, but say nothing of his birth. GJohn of course still says Jesus had a mother, however, as the Synoptics do.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:39 pm

rgprice wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:14 pm
I wonder if 1 John may have been written by the same person who wrote the Gospel of John, prior to his writing of the Gospel.
Same person? No way. Same circles, different (later) author for the gospel than for the epistle. The differences are too stark, and the Gospel seems to misunderstand the meaning of 1 John 5.6 (water and blood = baptism and death) at John 19.34 (water and blood = death only); also, for 1 John 2.1 the Paraclete is Jesus, whereas for John 14.16 the Holy Spirit is another Paraclete, thus revealing 1 John to be the source for this equation.

rgprice
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by rgprice » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:37 pm


Bernard Muller
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:38 pm

to rgprice and Ben,
I wonder if 1 John may have been written by the same person who wrote the Gospel of John, prior to his writing of the Gospel. Has anyone proposed this? What analysis is out there regarding a shared authorship between the Johannine epistles and GJohn?
I did that here: http://historical-jesus.info/jnorig.html#author

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bernard Muller
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by Bernard Muller » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:49 pm

to Ben,
if 1 John was written early, even earlier than when gMark got known among the targeted audience, then we can expect changes on certain theological points. Added to that, with gJohn written over a long period, we can expect more of those (which I found).
Read my web pages starting at http://historical-jesus.info/jnintro.html.

Cordially, Bernard

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Irish1975
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by Irish1975 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:13 pm

rgprice wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:47 am
Are the Johannine Epistles a reaction to Marcionism.

If they aren't a reaction to Marcionism, then what are they are reaction to?

Are there any good resources that address this topic?
Is there a specific datum in in the Johannines that suggests a Marcionite background?

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Irish1975
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Re: Johannine epistles as reaction to Marcionism?

Post by Irish1975 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:20 pm


Τίς ἐστιν ὁ ψεύστης εἰ μὴ ὁ ἀρνούμενος ὅτι Ἰησοῦς οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ Χριστός; οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀντίχριστος, ὁ ἀρνούμενος τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱόν. (1 John 2:22)

Do you know about the drunk who lost his car keys and only looks for them near the street lamp, because the light is really good over there?

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