Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:37 pm
Interesting, I didn't see that: Hebrew "elohim" vs Greek "angelos". Thanks as always Ben. (I'm glad you aren't charging us for your knowledgeable responses!)
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Are the invoices not reaching you for some reason?GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:37 pm Interesting, I didn't see that: Hebrew "elohim" vs Greek "angelos". Thanks as always Ben. (I'm glad you aren't charging us for your knowledgeable responses!)
RE: Heb. 2:9/LXX Ps. 8:5a: ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους [Heb. elohim, God, gods] ("You have made him for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. God, or the gods).Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:12 pmYes, and in the Hebrew it is actually "God," not "angels," at any rate.GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:46 pmThanks Ben. Interesting, I've never seen that reading before. I'm guessing that if Heb 2:9 was inspired by Psalm 8:5 ("For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels"), then that would be best how to read Heb.Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:54 pmThe culprit is the Greek adverb βραχύ. It can mean either "a little" with reference to how much lower Jesus was than the angels or "a short time" with reference to how long he was lower than the angels. The translator has to make an educated guess.
Not in my opinion, no; either translation is possible in the Greek. The question arises of how the author of Hebrews understood the phrase if he did not happen to know Hebrew. At that point we are no longer translating the Greek but rather interpreting the meaning.Is "a short time" a more natural reading somehow in the Greek of Heb 2:9, that it should be selected as a preferred translation?
! took off your biased addition and substitution: [it was simply written that] and [be seen to have].It's literature, Bernard, and unlikely to be factual history.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:07 am
"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
and deliver all those who...fear of death ...
For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned...with the descendants of Abraham.
Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:14-17)
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:23 pm
as one goes from chapter to chapter of Hebrews, it seems clear the author increasingly reifies and promotes Jesus,
eg. promoting Jesus over Moses in Hebrews 3:3,5-6, -
Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself ...
5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house” [Num. 12:7], bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
A lot of the rest of Hebrews 3 is Psalm 95:7-11, with Hebrews 3:15 repeating Psalm 95:7-8.
... it ends contrasting 'conviction in Christ' with 'those Moses did not lead out of the wilderness' -
Hebrews 3.
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we [should] hold - κατάσχωμεν - our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
....“Today, if you hear his voice,
.....do not harden your hearts
......as you did in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7,8]
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter His rest4 - κατάπαυσιν - if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
.
4 Ps. 95:11b -
10 “ For forty years I was angry with that generation;
...... I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray,
...... and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
...... ‘They shall never enter my rest.’.”
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:42 pm
Hebrews 5 riffs off (i) the end of Hebrews 1, (ii) the end of 4 and, as previously noted, (iii) vv. from a couple of Psalms, one about the order of Melchizedek, while also humanising Jesus -
Hebrews 5 (NIV)
.
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
....“You are my Son;
........today I have become your Father.” [Psalm 2:7]
6 And he says in another place,
....“You are a priest forever,
........in the order of Melchizedek.”[Psalm 110.4]
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth,1 he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
.
1 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/5.htm doesn't have Jesus' name here -
.
[He] in the days of the flesh of him ...
Ὃς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ ...
.