On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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hakeem
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:The passage you quoted and the entire Epistle to the Hebrews do not state Jesus had a human father. It should have occurred to you that the Christian Religion teaches that their Jesus had a human mother
Bernard Muller wrote:Oh, so Jesus had a human mother! I am glad you admit that.
I see you have difficulty with reading my post. I clearly stated that "the Christian Religion teaches that their Jesus had a human mother".
Bernard Muller wrote:As for Heb 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests." Heredity in the Jewish system was transmitted through the male line. gMatthew and gLuke did not change that in their made up genealogies. So, Hebrews implies Jesus had a human father.
It is very good that you refer to the genealogies in GMatthew and GLuke.

In GMatthew it is specifically stated that Jesus Christ was born after the supposed human mother was with child by a Holy Ghost.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When His mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

In GLuke the author gave details of how the supposed human mother would be impregnated by the same Ghost.


Luke 1.35
And the angel answered and said unto her, “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee. Therefore also that Holy Being who shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Christian religion which uses the NT Canon do teach that their Jesus was conceived by a human mother and a Holy Ghost.
Bernard Muller wrote:Yes Hebrews has the Son begotten before the beginning of time. But in order to be incarnated on earth, he needed a human mother and a human father, when still being the Son.
You seem not to have read or don't understand the Christian Bible. Do you remember who were the human parents of the character called Adam in the book of Genesis?

What about Eve?

Perhaps you don't realise that the Christian religion teaches that there were human beings on earth who had no human parents

Now, look. Even the sons of God impregnated the daughters of men in Genesis.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The Epistle to the Hebrews does not state anywhere that Jesus Christ had a human father but state he was God Creator which is also found in GJohn1 and Colossians 1.16.
Bernard Muller
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
I clearly stated that "the Christian Religion teaches that their Jesus had a human mother
If you admit the Christian religion teaches that their Jesus had a human mother, why would that not imply their Jesus was human according to that religion?
The Christian religion which uses the NT Canon do teach that their Jesus was conceived by a human mother and a Holy Ghost.
Yes, but gMatthew and gLuke came later than Paul's epistles and Hebrews. And even so, the two gospels say Jesus had brothers:
Mt 12:46 "While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him"
Lk 8:19 "Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him for the crowd."

Also in gJohn (which does not explain the incarnation):
Jn 2:12 "After this he went down to Caper'na-um, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples; and there they stayed for a few days."
Jn 7:3 "So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing."
Jn 7:5 "For even his brothers did not believe in him."
Jn 7:10 "But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private"

Having brothers implies a common biological human father.

From Paul's epistles:
"Israelites, ... whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ..." (Ro9:4-5 YLT) and "come of a woman, come under law" (Gal4:4 YLT) (as a descendant of (allegedly) Abraham (Gal3:16), Jesse (Ro15:12) & David (Ro1:3), who had brothers (1Co9:5), one of them called "James", whom Paul met (Gal1:19)

From Hebrews:
7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."
The Epistle to the Hebrews does not state anywhere that Jesus Christ had a human father but state he was God Creator which is also found in GJohn1 and Colossians 1.16.
So, Jesus is from the tribe of Judah but regardless he has God Creator as his biological father. That makes all members of the tribe of Judah having God Creator as their biological father.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote:
If you admit the Christian religion teaches that their Jesus had a human mother, why would that not imply their Jesus was human according to that religion?
The Christian religion teaches that their Jesus was God Creator in the flesh without a human father.
Bernard Muller wrote:
..... but gMatthew and gLuke came later than Paul's epistles and Hebrews.
What you say is baseless propaganda- without any historical evidence at all. You have no evidence whatsoever that any NT Epistle was written before GMatthew and gLuke.
Bernard Muller wrote: Having brothers implies a common biological human father.
Surely you must know that one can have siblings through a common mother.

You ought to know that all the supposed children of the mother of Jesus would be siblings although he was fathered by the Holy Ghost.

The Christian religion teaches that their Jesus was God Creator and born after his mother was with child by a Holy Ghost. Christian writers who used the Epistles and Hebrews also claimed their Jesus existed before he was born of the Holy Ghost and Mary.

Tertullian made references to the Epistles and declared Jesus was able to be born without a human father.

Tertullian "On the Flesh of Christ
As, then, before His birth of the virgin, He was able to have God for His Father without a human mother, so likewise, after He was born of the virgin, He was able to have a woman for His mother without a human father.


Bernard Muller wrote:So, Jesus is from the tribe of Judah but regardless he has God Creator as his biological father. That makes all members of the tribe of Judah having God Creator as their biological father.
Why do you mis-represent the very teachings found in the NT Canon that the Lord Jesus Christ was God Creator without a human father.?

The Epistle to the Hebrews states the Lord Jesus Christ was God Creator.

Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

Bernard Muller
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
The Christian religion teaches that their Jesus was God Creator in the flesh without a human father.
I don't care a bit about what the Christian religions teaches. What it teaches is not evidence about Jesus not having a human father.
What you say is baseless propaganda- without any historical evidence at all. You have no evidence whatsoever that any NT Epistle was written before GMatthew and gLuke.
Do you have evidence no NT epistles were written before gMatthew and gLuke?

In Paul's epistles Jerusalem is still standing.
In gMatthew & gLuke, Jerusalem has been destroyed (except if you believe Jesus made the prediction about its destruction!).
Surely you must know that one can have siblings through a common mother.
Right. BTW, gJohn (2:12, 7:3,5,10) and gMark (3:31) have no Holy Spirit's conception but still mention brothers of Jesus.
gJohn has even a human father for incarnated human Jesus:
Jn 6:42 "They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?""
Christian writers who used the Epistles and Hebrews also claimed their Jesus existed before he was born of the Holy Ghost and Mary.
But they knew also about gMatthew & gLuke, such as Tertullian (a third century Christian apologist). And these people were certainly not involved in unbiased historical investigation.

Cordially, Bernard
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billd89
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Epistle to the Hebrews: Implications or Inferences

Post by billd89 »

A preaching to a barely-Christianized and/or backsliding 'Melchizedek cult' of Judaizers (Jews AND proselytes: the circumcision argument was settled, among them). I suppose it's heavily redacted, still.

Where was this congregation, if not Alexandria? Was it a widespread network of Alexandria-oriented synagogues, that Apollos went forth to preach to? I perceive it was an unorthodox/heretical Jewish Mosaic-Logos cult, the Therapeutae were related, and such 'marginal' synagogues - at least open to the doctrine - may have been quite numerous all around the Mediterranean c. AD 25-150.

The priority of Melchizedek seems obvious, though the revisionist primacy of the New Christ is asserted & explained: Hebrews purpose. The "Jesus" Christ interpretation is overlayed upon another, older Christos belief system: so how popular was this presumably widespread soterological Melchizedek cult, if Philo alludes to it repeatedly in various writings?

And it's amazing to me that such a document survived the Patristic Latin censors, c. AD 200-300.

Also: Moffat on Melchizedek (1924)
hakeem
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:49 pm to hakeem,
The Christian religion teaches that their Jesus was God Creator in the flesh without a human father.
I don't care a bit about what the Christian religions teaches. What it teaches is not evidence about Jesus not having a human father.
I don't care about what you believe.
I am dealing with what Christian writers stated about their Jesus.

The Christian writers admit their Jesus had no human father.
What you say is baseless propaganda- without any historical evidence at all. You have no evidence whatsoever that any NT Epistle was written before GMatthew and gLuke.
Do you have evidence no NT epistles were written before gMatthew and gLuke?
Yes, Yes, Yes!!!

First of all you must remember there were no Gospels written by Matthew or Luke.

The Gospels were really anonymous writings with stories of Jesus.
Stories of Jesus must have predated the Pauline writings once it is admitted that Paul persecuted believers in Jesus.

[quote="Bernard Muller"In Paul's epistles Jerusalem is still standing.
In gMatthew & gLuke, Jerusalem has been destroyed (except if you believe Jesus made the prediction about its destruction!).[/quote]

In the Epistles, the Temple of the Jewish God had already fallen.

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The so-called Pauline writer composed the Epistle to the Romans after they had defeated the Jews c 70 CE. Severity fell on the Jews when the Temple fell and Jerusalem destroyed.


[quote="Bernard Muller]..... BTW, gJohn (2:12, 7:3,5,10) and gMark (3:31) have no Holy Spirit's conception but still mention brothers of Jesus.
gJohn has even a human father for incarnated human Jesus:
Jn 6:42 "They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?""[/quote]

GJohn's Jesus was God Creator. You have missed the very first verses of the book.

GMark's Jesus was God's son.

God publicly told people that GMarK'S Jesus was his son.

How many times must I show that birth of earthly beings in the Christian Bible do not require human human parents
Bernard Muller wrote: But they knew also about gMatthew & gLuke, such as Tertullian (a third century Christian apologist). And these people were certainly not involved in unbiased historical investigation.

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard Muller
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
I don't care about what you believe.
I am dealing with what Christian writers stated about their Jesus.
So you should pay attention to what Paul & Hebrews said about the incarnated MAN Jesus' origin.
Christ is begotten the son of God forever from the beginning of times. Granted.
In the gospels, the MAN Jesus is the son of God and son of man. That proves MAN Jesus can be both at the same time (son of man implies a very human origin for MAN Jesus as showing in Paul's epistles & Hebrews).
The Christian writers admit their Jesus had no human father.
These writers had to take in account gMatthew & gLuke.
First of all you must remember there were no Gospels written by Matthew or Luke.
The Gospels were really anonymous writings with stories of Jesus.
Stories of Jesus must have predated the Pauline writings once it is admitted that Paul persecuted believers in Jesus.
I agree on these three points. I always thought that.
Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The so-called Pauline writer composed the Epistle to the Romans after they had defeated the Jews c 70 CE. Severity fell on the Jews when the Temple fell and Jerusalem destroyed.
You call Ro 11:22 as evidence for the epistle being written after 70! You have a lot of imagination.
"them" stands for unbelievers according to Ro 11:20 and 23.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: So you should pay attention to what Paul & Hebrews said about the incarnated MAN Jesus' origin.
Christ is begotten the son of God forever from the beginning of times. Granted.
In the gospels, the MAN Jesus is the son of God and son of man. That proves MAN Jesus can be both at the same time (son of man implies a very human origin for MAN Jesus as showing in Paul's epistles & Hebrews).
The Christian God called Jesus is depicted as God Incarnate [God in the flesh] not incarnated man.
hakeem wrote:The Christian writers admit their Jesus had no human father.
Bernard Muller wrote:These writers had to take in account gMatthew & gLuke.
No NT writer claimed their Jesus had a human father. The very Christian Bible shows that the religion believes there were human beings on earth who existed without human parents.

In fact, in the GMark Jesus story , the voice of God declared Jesus was his son at the baptism by John and at the transfiguration.
Bernard Muller wrote:You call Ro 11:22 as evidence for the epistle being written after 70! You have a lot of imagination.
"them" stands for unbelievers according to Ro 11:20 and 23.
Romans 11 is not the only evidence that the Epistles were written after 70 CE. There are multiple sources of evidence. We have the short gMark, Revelation, Acts of the Apostles, Aristides' Apology, the works of Justin Martyr, writings of Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, Municius Felix, Philo, Pliny the elder, Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Celsus and others.

All claims in the Epistles that Jesus Christ was God Creator, was seen by over 500 persons after the resurrection, that one can be saved by the resurrection and that dead believers would meet Jesus in the air are all after the short GMark.

Up to c 175 CE, Celsus knew stories of Jesus but had no knowledge of stories about Paul or his supposed letters.

Celsus heard nothing about the Pauline post-resurrection story where over 500 persons saw the resurrected Jesus.
Bernard Muller
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
Romans 11 is not the only evidence that the Epistles were written after 70 CE. There are multiple sources of evidence. We have the short gMark, Revelation, Acts of the Apostles, Aristides' Apology, the works of Justin Martyr, writings of Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, Municius Felix, Philo, Pliny the elder, Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Celsus and others.
Argument from silence. Almost all these texts and authors had no reason to mention Paul wrote epistles in their writings.
But "Ignatius" did mention Paul writing epistle(s): to the Ephesians 12:2
As also 1 Clement: 47:2
As also Polycarp to the Philippians: 3:2

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by hakeem »

hakeem wrote:Romans 11 is not the only evidence that the Epistles were written after 70 CE. There are multiple sources of evidence. We have the short gMark, Revelation, Acts of the Apostles, Aristides' Apology, the works of Justin Martyr, writings of Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras of Athens, Municius Felix, Philo, Pliny the elder, Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Celsus and others.
Bernard Muller wrote:Argument from silence.
Your statement is most amusing. You yourself use bucket loads of arguments from silence to argue that Epistle were written early.
Bernard Muller wrote: Almost all these texts and authors had no reason to mention Paul wrote epistles in their writings.
But "Ignatius" did mention Paul writing epistle(s): to the Ephesians 12:2
As also 1 Clement: 47:2
As also Polycarp to the Philippians: 3:2

Cordially, Bernard
But, your argument is contradictory since you now claim Ignatius, Clement and Polycarp mention Paul. Christian writers must have reason to mention those who supposedly preached the Gospel. The fore-mentioned writers knew nothing of a character called Paul who preached the Gospel and wrote letters anywhere in the whole world.
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