On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by GakuseiDon »

Interesting, I didn't see that: Hebrew "elohim" vs Greek "angelos". Thanks as always Ben. (I'm glad you aren't charging us for your knowledgeable responses!)
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by Ben C. Smith »

GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:37 pm Interesting, I didn't see that: Hebrew "elohim" vs Greek "angelos". Thanks as always Ben. (I'm glad you aren't charging us for your knowledgeable responses!)
Are the invoices not reaching you for some reason? :cheers:
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by gryan »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:12 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:46 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:54 pmThe culprit is the Greek adverb βραχύ. It can mean either "a little" with reference to how much lower Jesus was than the angels or "a short time" with reference to how long he was lower than the angels. The translator has to make an educated guess.
Thanks Ben. Interesting, I've never seen that reading before. I'm guessing that if Heb 2:9 was inspired by Psalm 8:5 ("For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels"), then that would be best how to read Heb.
Yes, and in the Hebrew it is actually "God," not "angels," at any rate.
Is "a short time" a more natural reading somehow in the Greek of Heb 2:9, that it should be selected as a preferred translation?
Not in my opinion, no; either translation is possible in the Greek. The question arises of how the author of Hebrews understood the phrase if he did not happen to know Hebrew. At that point we are no longer translating the Greek but rather interpreting the meaning.
RE: Heb. 2:9/LXX Ps. 8:5a: ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους [Heb. elohim, God, gods] ("You have made him for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. God, or the gods).

In “The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture”, Bart Ehrman argued (persuasively IMHO) that instead of χάριτι Θεοῦ (“by the grace of”), the textual variant, χωρις θεου (“apart from God”), is quite possibly original.

I wonder how this textual alternative--χωρις θεου ("apart from God")--might fit with the idea of being "a short time" or a little lower than "God [or the gods]" or the angles-- ie, in a position to "taste death on behalf of all [flesh?]"?
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:07 am

"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
and deliver all those who...fear of death ...

For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned...with the descendants of Abraham.
Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people."
(Heb 2:14-17)
It's literature, Bernard, and unlikely to be factual history.
! took off your biased addition and substitution: [it was simply written that] and [be seen to have].

What I just outlined are theological points. The author used the fact that Jesus was fully human to make these points. Certainly that does not make what preceeds the outlined words just fictional literature.
More so if we consider:
(Heb 7:14)"For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests." (Heb 7:14)

However, I would consider the writings of your carefully selected writers (McConville, Gordon; Williams, Stephen) as literature. But you seem to use these contemporary writings as your evidence to counteract mine from an ancient text.

As for "to be made like", I do not see your point, considering that is followed by "his brethren in every respect". And let's not forget about Heb 7:14.

Cordially, Bernard
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MrMacSon
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

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So, Hebrews 1 is about The Son

Hebrews 1 opens with (1) reference to the prophets, (2) these last days, then Creation, (3) "The Son [who] is the radiance of God's glory ... [who somehow unspecified] had provided purification for sins". and (4) reference to the "the name he has inherited" -

.
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
.

- then throws in reference to Gods firstborn before citing Deuteronomy 32:43; several vv. from Psalms; 2 Samuel 7:14; and 1 Chronicle 7:13 -


..6 . And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

.........“Let all God’s angels worship him.” . [Deut. 32:43]
.

It finishes with v. 14 -

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?


Hebrews 2 follows on fairly well, with a bit of a prologue before briefly appealing to salvation, overtly sidelining angels, which seemed to have been a bit of bait in Hebrews 1 -

1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified ...

- , before citing a few more verses from Psalms which place mankind lower than angels.

Then -

.
9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
.

We see the first reference to Jesus and him suffering death so that he might 'taste' death for everyone. For which he was crowned with glory and honour. Then -

11a Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

- using a Psalm to justify and perhaps even to try to 'verify' that -


.
11b He says,

.....“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
........in the assembly I will sing your praises.” [Psalm 22:22]
.

Later, at the end of Hebrews 2, an appeal to the Jews -

16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants


re Hebrews 3, I noted in the OP -
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:23 pm
as one goes from chapter to chapter of Hebrews, it seems clear the author increasingly reifies and promotes Jesus,

eg. promoting Jesus over Moses in Hebrews 3:3,5-6, -

Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself ...
5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house” [Num. 12:7], bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

A lot of the rest of Hebrews 3 is Psalm 95:7-11, with Hebrews 3:15 repeating Psalm 95:7-8.

... it ends contrasting 'conviction in Christ' with 'those Moses did not lead out of the wilderness' -

Hebrews 3
.
14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we [should] hold - κατάσχωμεν - our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

....“Today, if you hear his voice,
.....do not harden your hearts
......as you did in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7,8]

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter His rest4 - κατάπαυσιν - if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
.

4 Ps. 95:11b -

10 “ For forty years I was angry with that generation;
...... I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray,
...... and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
...... ‘They shall never enter my rest.’.


As noted and discussed, lots of references to κατάπαυσιν (rest) at the end of Hebrews 3 and the first half of Hebrews 4.

MrMacSon wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:42 pm
Hebrews 5 riffs off (i) the end of Hebrews 1, (ii) the end of 4 and, as previously noted, (iii) vv. from a couple of Psalms, one about the order of Melchizedek, while also humanising Jesus -

Hebrews 5 (NIV)

.
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

....“You are my Son;
........today I have become your Father.” [Psalm 2:7]

6 And he says in another place,

....“You are a priest forever,
........in the order of Melchizedek.”[Psalm 110.4]

7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth,1 he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
.

1 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/5.htm doesn't have Jesus' name here -

.
[He] in the days of the flesh of him ...

Ὃς ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ ...
.

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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

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Hebrews 6 starts -

.
1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites [baptism], the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who, if they fall / have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
.

Aha! Reference to crucifixion!

One might wonder where the author of Hebrews got this notion/ proposition / assertion from ???


9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

box=white] We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.[/box]


Hebrews 7 talks up Melchizedek -

This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! ...


Before a sudden switch ... to Jesus! --

.
21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

.....“The Lord has sworn
........and will not change his mind:
........‘You are a priest forever.’” [Psalm 110.4]

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant ...

24 ... because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save forever/ completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

... the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
.


Hebrews 8

.
1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain” [Exodus 25:40] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
.


Hebrews 8:8b-12 = Jer. 31:31-34 --

.........“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
...........when I will make a new covenant
.........with the people of Israel
...........and with the people of Judah.

..9.. It will not be like the covenant
..........I made with their ancestors
........when I took them by the hand
..........to lead them out of Egypt,
........because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
.......... and I turned away from them,
..............declares the Lord.

..10..This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
........ after that time, declares the Lord.
.......I will put my laws in their minds
..........and write them on their hearts.
.......I will be their God,
..........and they will be my people.

..11.. No longer will they teach their neighbor,
......... or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
.......because they will all know me,
.........from the least of them to the greatest.

..12..For I will forgive their wickedness
.........and will remember their sins no more.”
.


Hebrews 8 finishes with

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

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Hebrews 9 starts talking about the old covenant, the tabernacle set up, eg. the rooms, etc..

Then

.
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here [alt: are to come], he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead from useless rituals [or] to death, so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
.

And

.
23 ... the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence ...

28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
.



Hebrews 10 starts dismissing The Law - "only a shadow of the good things that are coming" and "the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year ... those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins" ...

.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

.....“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
........but a body you prepared for me;
6.....with burnt offerings and sin offerings
........you were not pleased.

7....Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
...... I have come to do your will, my God.’” ............................ [Psalm 40:6-8] !

8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
.

...so, Christ 'wrote Psalm 40' ...
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

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Then in Hebrews 10 -

12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16....“This is the covenant I will make with them
..........after that time, says the Lord.
.......I will put my laws in their hearts,
..........and I will write them on their minds.” ...[Jer. 31:33]

17 Then he adds:

......“Their sins and lawless acts
.........I will remember no more.” ... [Jer. 31:34c]

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


The next two verses make some claims that would seem to be blasphemous to Second Temple Judaism -

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God


Then an appeal to sincere and cleansed hearts

22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


Then things get a bit heavy, using more OT scripture, Deut. 32:35,36; and Psalm 135:14 -

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” [Deut. 32:35] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” [Deut. 32:36, Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Hebrews 10 finishes -

.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

37 For,

....“In just a little while,
.......he who is coming will come
.......and will not delay.”......[Isaiah 26:20; Hab. 2:3]

38 And,

.....“But my/the righteous one will live by faith.
.......And I take no pleasure
.........in the one who shrinks back.”......[Hab. 2:4]

39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
.

- ie. appealing to more LXX scripture.
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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

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Hebrews 11 is all a tour through Hebrew history before finishing

9 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

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Re: On the Epistle to the Hebrews

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Hebrews 12 starts

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

" ... the race marked out for us ... Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith ... "

" ... he endured the cross ..." !! .... " ... scorning it's shame ..." Has the cross ever been described as shame??


Then more LXX

4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

.....“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
.......and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6....because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
.......and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”....[Prov. 3:11,12]

The following few verses riff off the quoted Proverb mention of discipline ...

Then appeals to peace and grace ...

Then a bold assertion, then v. 24 --

22 ... you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel ...


The last chapter, Hebrews 13, is a series of exhortations, eg. -

15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

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