Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
davidmartin
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by davidmartin »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:54 pm We'll here's a stumbling block to the idea that Jesus Christ / Joshua son of Nun that comes from Romans itself:
Romans 10:
14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him?
Doesn't seem likely that Paul could say this about Joshua, or really anyone else from the scriptures. I'm not sure of a way to address this. This statement would seem to preclude Jesus being anyone other than a figure of Paul's imagination...
not so sure the Greek really says this could it mean "how are they to believe in one they have not understood" ?
the word ἀκούω ?
not sure if this possible reading, ie he is saying they didn't believe/understand rather than never heard of... not sure.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Isaac...

Post by MrMacSon »

gryan wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:05 am
rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:53 am What I'm proposing is that everywhere Paul was always talking about Joshua son of Nun. Any time Paul says Jesus Christ he's really saying the Messiah Joshua son of Nun. Paul never talks about a Jesus blood brother of James.
One name, arguably two meanings in context. Per a Google search, here is standard explanation:

.
“Jesus” or “Joshua” in Acts 7:45 & Hebrews 4:8?

“ιησους (Iēsoûs)” or “Jesus,” is the Greek form of [Y'hosua - יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ ].1 Critics claim that the KJV, by merely transliterating the name, misleads readers into thinking that these verses about Joshua the son of Nun are about Jesus Christ. However, one must wonder why English readers should be misled by something that did not mislead Greek readers, for the Greek does not differentiate the two.2 Rather, it would be more helpful for an English reader to learn that “Jesus” was a typical Hebrew name,3 and that the identity of any “Jesus” must be determined by context...“Jesus” was a typical name in first century Judea.3 On another note, Jesus the son of Nun of the Old Testament was [perhaps] a "type" of for Jesus the son of God of the New Testament. Whereas the [supposedly] mortal Jesus[Hebrew] Y'hosua - יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ - led the Israelites to physical rest, the divine [NT] Jesus led man to spiritual rest.4 God may have purposely given the same name to both men in order that we see that one is the type of the other. This truth is apparent in the KJV. http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/jesus-or-j ... hebrews-48

To my ear, your re-reading is deaf to NT use of typology.
That kjvtoday.com passage is misleading:

1 Jesus is the late English form of Iēsoûs through the Latin, IESVS / Iesus

2 The Greek didn't need to differentiate the two:
  • as per their opening sentence - “ιησους (Iesous)” is the Greek form of Y'hosua - יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎

    ιησους (Iesous) later became Jesus through the Latin, IESVS / Iesus
3 Nonsense. The typical Hebrew name was Y'hosua יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ or either shortened toY'shua (ישוע‎ with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ‎ – yēšūă‘ in Hebrew) [I've seen it asserted that Y'shua was the Aramaic].

4 I presume the edits I've made to that sentence reflect what the author of that passage meant, viz. -
  • "Whereas the [supposedly] mortal Jesus[Hebrew] Y'hosua - יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ - led the Israelites to physical rest, the divine [NT] Jesus led man to spiritual rest."

ETA: re Hebrews 4:8

For if Ἰησοῦς / Iēsous had given them rest, God would not speak later about another day.

Hebrews 4:14

Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Ἰησοῦν / Iēsoun, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.

see https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/4.htm
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:41 am, edited 5 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Isaac...

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:30 am It may be that Paul is talking about the historical Joshua son of Nun, a Messiah for the Jewish people, a title he could rightly be granted. But the "rising" of Joshua was a recent event. Joshua died a long time ago, but he is risen now.
On what basis do you say the "rising of 'Joshua' was a recent event? "Joshua's" rising was recent to Paul?
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by mlinssen »

I laughed out really loud at

God may have purposely given the same name to both men in order that we see that one is the type of the other. This truth is apparent in the KJV.

And people seriously quote from that?

I have been looking for the real texts behind some of the "translations" that we have, but haven't been able to come up with anything. It seems evident that no opportunity has been left unexploited to suggest that the Jesus of the canonicals was named by virtually everyone, preferably prior to his alleged existence - but I'd like to see real evidence of that
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

If I were forced to come up with a theory along these lines I guess it would be something like this:

The "Jesus Christ" Paul was preaching was a figure like Enoch, derived from Jewish scriptures about Joshua son of Nun -- Joshua the Messiah. The Joshua of Paul was created through the process of pesher, whereby bits of scripture are taken out of context and reinterpreted, a common practice witnessed in the texts from Qurmran.

The Joshua Messiah of Paul had taken the form of flesh, lived in the distant past, had been hung on a tree, and had risen recently -- "the first fruits" of the resurrection.

Identifying Paul's Joshua from his pesher:
Galatians 3:
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law; for “The one who is righteous will live by faith.” 12 But the law does not rest on faith; on the contrary, “Whoever does the works of the law will live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Promise to Abraham
15 Brothers and sisters, I give an example from daily life: once a person’s will has been ratified, no one adds to it or annuls it. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring; it does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many; but it says, “And to your seed,” that is, to one person, who is Christ. 17 My point is this: the law, which came four hundred thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance comes from the law, it no longer comes from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise.
Galatians 4:
4 My point is this: heirs, as long as they are minors, are no better than slaves, though they are the owners of all the property; 2 but they remain under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. 3 So with us; while we were minors, we were enslaved to the elemental spirits of the world. 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 in order to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as children. 6 And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a child, and if a child then also an heir, through God.
The "fullness of time" refers to "four hundred thirty years" after God made his promise to Abraham.
Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Joshua the Messiah, abounded for the many.
I suspect that there was some pesher by which "son of Nun" was taken to mean "son of God". Paul talks about hidden mysteries.
Romans 16:
25 Now to God[m] who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages 26 but is now disclosed, and through the prophetic writings is made known to all the Gentiles,
Perhaps part of the mystery was that "son of Nun" = "son of God".
Numbers 8:
8 from the tribe of Ephraim, Hoshea son of Nun;... And Moses changed the name of Hoshea son of Nun to Joshua.
This changing of his name to "YWHY's salvation" was the revelation that he was the son of God.

The crucifixion of Joshua:
Joshua 8:
29 And he hanged the king of Ai on a tree until evening; and at sunset Joshua commanded, and they took his body down from the tree, threw it down at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raised over it a great heap of stones, which stands there to this day.
From this possibly some pesher was created whereby the king of Ai and Joshua were transposed. Part of the mystery is that it was really Joshua who was crucified, not the king. This could explain the Gospel tradition whereby Jesus was substituted for the one who was to be crucified, Barabbas.

How then to explain the fact that the Joshua story continues on, he's clearly not dead, its not his body under the stones? Don't have a good explanation for that other than resorting to mystical pesherism.

I'm not saying I think this to be true, I'm saying right now, this is the best I could come up with to try and make some kind of case of out this. I'm not saying its a good case. It's not horrible, but its certainly lacking at this point. But quite honestly, there aren't many other opportunities in the scriptures to identify anyone being hung on a tree that could be the Christ Paul is talking about.

Perhaps this could bring a new view of:
Galatians 3:
3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes {I showed you} that Joshua the Messiah was portrayed {forewritten} as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:19 am If I were forced to come up with a theory along these lines I guess it would be something like this:

The "Jesus Christ" Paul was preaching was a figure like Enoch, derived from Jewish scriptures about Joshua son of Nun -- Joshua the Messiah.
What are the indications ‘Joshua’ son of Nun was viewed as a messiah; either (1) when the Jews were first writing about him (if at all), or (2) when Jews in or around say Philo’s time we’re writing (again, if at all)?

rgprice wrote: The ‘Joshua’ of Paul was created through the process of pesher, whereby bits of scripture are taken out of context and reinterpreted, a common practice witnessed in the texts from
  1. Is the process of pesher different to midrash/ midrashim?
  2. Are you aware of the work of Barbara Thiering (or similar scholars who wrote about pesher)?

“Perhaps part of the mystery was that "son of Nun" = "son of God”
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davidmartin
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by davidmartin »

i kind of like your theory RG, it covers a lot of bases
kind of musing here, but Paul's belief in Romans that Jews would embrace his gospel seems fanciful to me (i think i'm understating that)
but what if Paul could clearly see the war brewing and the obvious outcome. it would hardly take a prophetic genius to see what was probably going to happen, then... with the temple and most of the authorities gone and scattered.. it might have a chance, did he position his gospel to anticipate that?
the ironic thing is the gospel Jesus's teaching as we have them would have avoided a war in the first place
gryan
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:19 am
I'm not saying I think this to be true, I'm saying right now, this is the best I could come up with to try and make some kind of case of out this. I'm not saying its a good case. It's not horrible, but its certainly lacking at this point. But quite honestly, there aren't many other opportunities in the scriptures to identify anyone being hung on a tree that could be the Christ Paul is talking about.
Galatians 3:
3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes {I showed you} that Joshua the Messiah was portrayed {forewritten} as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh?
Interesting effort. I'm enjoying this.

Upon my own close re-reading--which your writing have helped me muster the energy to do!---I find the data of Galatians far more easily construed sensibly if there was a historical Jesus who had disciples (including Cephas, also known as Peter), who was crucified, and who was survived by his flesh-and-blood brothers, including one named James.

I don't think Paul saw any conflict whatsoever between the claim, "I did not get my gospel from a human source" and the claim "I went up to Jerusalem... saw Cephas... and James the brother of the Lord." As I imagine those encounters, meeting Paul, would have been, for Cephas and James, somewhat like visiting a modern day "spirit medium". When they saw that Paul was able to say things that he could have said only if it had been the real spirit of Jesus manifesting in him, then they would have been the very best ones to say with authority: "you could not have gotten this from a human source"! I think that is what he meant when he insisted that he was not lying--he really was told by James the brother of the Lord that he did not get his revelation from a human source.

Paul was a writer, and he wrote about what was revealed to him through Christ Jesus, the one who had been crucified. He did so with witness: the epistle sent to the Galatians was sent not only from Paul himself, but also, he says, from "the brothers with me." I think those brothers who were co-senders would have examined the letter closely with their own eyes, and pondered its meaning deeply. So also, I think it is possible that Paul had presented himself in Galatia formerly, not only as a speaker, but as a letter writer. Thus, it is easy to imagine him inviting the Galatian brothers to examine the text he had been writing at that time with their own eyes.
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Re: Born of a woman, under the law... Joshua...

Post by rgprice »

It appears that the whole phrase "born of a woman, born under the law" likely was not present in Marcion's version of the Pauline letters.

Here is the reconstruction of what is now Gal 4:1-7
15I still speak in a human fashion. 4 3When we were
infants, we were enslaved by the ordering forces of the
world. 4But when the completion of the time arrived, God
sent forth his child . . . 5so that he might purchase those
under law, so that we might receive adoption. 6So, because
you are God’s children, he has sent forth his spirit
into our hearts, crying out: “Abba, Father!” 7[Thus, you
are no longer a slave but a child; and if a child, also an heir
through God.
However, the notes on this say:
Gal 4.1–2 is unattested. Harnack, Marcion, 74*, suggests that the verses
probably were present as the referent of 3.15a, which was transposed
to the beginning of 4.3. But Tertullian complains that 3.15a makes no
sense because what follows in 4.3ff. is not an analogy from human
practice, but a statement of actual spiritual fact; this criticism would
lose its cogency if 4.1–2, with its analogy from human practice, immediately
preceded, in which case 3.15a would be taken to refer back to
it, just as Harnack supposes.
4.3 (+ 3.15a) Tertullian, Marc. 5.4.1. Tertullian attests a transposition of
3.15a, adding “still” (“I still speak,” Latin adhuc > Gk eti), to the beginning
of this verse and omitting 4.3a “thus also you” in agreement with
Clement of Alexandria. Ephrem Syrus omits the clause at 3.15, but
does not place it at 4.3.
4.4–5 Tertullian, Marc. 5.4.2–3; 5.8.7; Adam* 2.19 (v. 5; Schmid does not
credit the evidence of Adamantius). In v. 4 Tertullian does not include
the words “born from a woman” (nor “born under law”); but Jerome,
Comm. Gal. 4.4–5, appears to attribute “born through a woman (factum
per mulierum)” to Marcion’s text, when he says “Please note that he
(Paul) did not say ‘born through a woman’—phrasing opted for by
Marcion and other heresies which pretend that the flesh of Christ was
imaginary—but ‘born of a woman.’” Harnack, who usually credits
Jerome’s testimony as based on Origen, rejects it here because he assumes
Marcion’s views about Jesus preclude him allowing the words
to remain in the text. Such an ideologically-based argument is unacceptable.
A more sound reason for questioning Jerome’s testimony
comes from a quotation of the original words of Origen on which
Jerome probably based his remark. These are preserved by Pamphilus,
Apology for Origen 113: “We need not give a hearing to those who
say that Christ was born through Mary and not of Mary, because the
Apostle, in his foresight, said in anticipation of this,” quoting Gal 4.4,
followed by, “You see why he did not say ‘born through a woman,’
but rather ‘born of a woman.’” It appears, then, that Origen offers a
hypothetical textual variant, rather than attributing it—or v. 4b in any
form—to Marcion’s text. It therefore remains unattested. Adamantius
gives at best merely an allusion to v. 5: “We have been received into
adoption (eis huiothesian elēphthēmen)”; cf. Rom 8.15, Laod (Eph) 1.5.
4.6 Tertullian, Marc. 5.4.4. Marcion’s text shows some differences with
most witnesses to the catholic text: “you are God’s children,” instead
of “you are children,” in agreement with Gk mss D, F, G; “he has
sent” rather than “God has sent,” in agreement with Gk mss B and
1739; “his spirit” (to pneuma autou) in place of “the spirit of his son” (to
pneuma tou hiou autou), in agreement with P46, 1734, and 1738; “into our
hearts,” rather than “into your hearts” (most early manuscripts agree).
Harnack considers Tertullian to be loosely paraphrasing, and so
268 The Apostolikon
reserves judgment on any of these variants. But Tertullian’s supposed
paraphrasing matches known textual variants, and the ambiguity of
“he has sent” and “his spirit” suggests an earlier text, which the other
textual variants clarify. Unfortunately, Tertullian does not quote the
verse elsewhere for comparison.
Gal 4.7–8a, 9a is unattested.
So, what to make of this?

Several work I've been reading lately make the case that Marcion wasn't an editor and he didn't corrupt his texts. This case is generally made along the argument that most of Marcion's texts would seem to contradict the positions attributed to him, which would indicate that he didn't not craft his texts, rather he simply adopted existing texts without alteration. Differences between the Catholic and Macrionite texts are explained through a variety of causes, including simply different variations that developed outside of the hands of either Marcion or the Romans (i.e. different variants existed and, but arose for non-ideological reasons).

According to this view, the Romans and Marcionites diverged due to variants in texts that they did not themselves create, but rather adopted and built doctrines upon, then accused one another of having created the variations.
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