Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by rgprice » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:03 pm

I've read Galatians too many times now. It's like it takes repeated readings to stop seeing the assumptions you start with. Maybe I've read too much.. :p

As has been stated here, "persecuting the church of God" doesn't necessarily even mean an organization that worshiped Jesus. Maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, Paul says of his gospel, as we all know, "I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."

The big topic of Galatians is of course circumcision. The leaders of the Jerusalem church advocate circumcision. It seems that Paul's "revelation" is a scriptural scheme by which he believes he's found a loophole that nullifies the requirement for circumcision. That loophole is Jesus Christ. So if Jesus Christ is the loophole, but the Jerusalem church endorses circumcision, then does that mean that the Jerusalem church isn't, "in Christ"?

"they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised"

But what was Peter's Gospel? It seems to me that what the Jerusalem church was engaged in was merely evangelical Judaism. The "gospel of Peter" may well have been just some message about the End Times or whatever. It may not have even had anything to do with Jesus.

"(for he who worked through Peter making him an apostle to the circumcised also worked through me in sending me to the Gentiles)"

Who is "he"? Is "he" God or is "he" Jesus? It's assumed that its Jesus.

"Worked through" implies a divine revelation. It does not indicate personal instruction. Are all of the apostles receiving divine callings from "Jesus" or from "God" or from various divine beings such as Michael, etc.?

davidmartin
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by davidmartin » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:48 pm

Paul's loophole of Jesus requires a hefty amount of theology though, to make it all work (i'm not sure i really understand how it does!)
But if you wanted to alleviate the requirement for circumcision you could just say that it should be 'spiritual' from now on, ie of the heart and doesn't need to be physical. No need for Paul's complicated theology. No need for Jesus fulfilling the law

Did the Jerusalem church preach Jesus Christ?
I always thought the accounts of the Ebionites and Clementine literature is what this church might of preached
It looks like a pre-existing system of thought using Jesus as a platform, i say that because they hardly know anything of a historical Jesus they don't dish up the goods at all. I'm convinced they believed in hell though unlike Paul. Jesus is pretty much just another prophet, most unlike Paul

John2
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by John2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:14 pm

The leaders of the Jerusalem church advocate circumcision.

Did they though? I get the impression that it was only the "false brothers" Paul mentions in Gal. 2:3-5 who advocated for Gentile circumcision.

Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This issue arose because some false brothers had come in under false pretenses to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus, in order to enslave us. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

Jewish Christian leaders appear to have approved of Paul's Torah-free mission to the Gentiles (as per Gal. 2:7-9).

... they saw that I had been entrusted to preach the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. For the One who was at work in Peter’s apostleship to the circumcised was also at work in my apostleship to the Gentiles.

And recognizing the grace that I had been given, James, Cephas, and John—those reputed to be pillars—gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

I think the issue in Antioch between Paul and Peter was about keeping table fellowship with Gentiles rather than circumcision.

However, Paul does go on to say that, "before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray."

But in his reference to "those in the circumcision group," is Paul saying that they advocated for Gentile circumcision or is he only describing them as being Torah observant Jews? I'm thinking it is the latter.

In the big picture, I think Paul is angry because Peter and the other Jews were modeling a way of life that he considered to be no longer relevant for Jews, for which he was reproved by those sent from James and (in my view) by James in his letter (and which I think could be the reason Paul says he was willing to pretend to be Torah observant around Jews in 1 Cor. 9:20). I think he calls them "those in the circumcision group" because they were Torah observant and not because they advocated for Gentile circumcision.
Last edited by John2 on Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

perseusomega9
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by perseusomega9 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:31 pm

Preaching a Joshua Son of Joseph who was crucified under Pontius Pilate in ~30Ad-doubt it

Preaching a variety Christ infused characters that is the predicted wherever, sure.

Charles Wilson
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by Charles Wilson » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:27 pm

"Existence is not a Predicate".

What is this "Jerusalem Church" I hear so much about? Where was it? Fourth Street and Main?
Last I heard the Temple was in Jerusalem and things were pretty tight as to Zoning Regulations.
Caligula wanted to put a statue of himself in the Temple and "The Jews" bared their necks to the Romans, daring the Romans to cut their throats.
"This 'Jesus' wants us to what?!?? Pay taxes to Rome? Carry a Roman soldier's back pack TWO miles instead of one? Are you nuts?"

Fiction. All a FICTION.

Once again, the "John" character was of BILGAH, a Mishmarot Service Group and, yes, he might be a fiction as well, if, for example, the Base NT Story was written by a Nicholas of Damascus. The "Jesus" character almost certainly was a FICTION having been renamed from a Priest who was of the Mishmarot Group IMMER.

John 1: 15 (RSV):

[15] (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'")

Even the fictional Acts knows:

Acts 13: 25 (RSV):

[25] And as John was finishing his course, he said, `What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'

"As John was finishing his COURSE..." and, "...after me one is coming..."

What could that POSSIBLY, possibly mean...?

John2
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by John2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:23 pm

But what was Peter's Gospel? It seems to me that what the Jerusalem church was engaged in was merely evangelical Judaism.

In my view that is all laid out by Peter himself in 1 Peter (in which he calls himself "an apostle of Jesus Christ"). It's that simple, I think.

rgprice
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by rgprice » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:56 pm

John2 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:14 pm
Did they though? I get the impression that it was only the "false brothers" Paul mentions in Gal. 2:3-5 who advocated for Gentile circumcision.

Jewish Christian leaders appear to have approved of Paul's Torah-free mission to the Gentiles (as per Gal. 2:7-9).

I think the issue in Antioch between Paul and Peter was about keeping table fellowship with Gentiles rather than circumcision.

However, Paul does go on to say that, "before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray."

But in his reference to "those in the circumcision group," is Paul saying that they advocated for Gentile circumcision or is he only describing them as being Torah observant Jews? I'm thinking it is the latter.

In the big picture, I think Paul is angry because Peter and the other Jews were modeling a way of life that he considered to be no longer relevant for Jews, for which he was reproved by those sent from James and (in my view) by James in his letter (and which I think could be the reason Paul says he was willing to pretend to be Torah observant around Jews in 1 Cor. 9:20). I think he calls them "those in the circumcision group" because they were Torah observant and not because they advocated for Gentile circumcision.
The way I've read it is, that they approved of Paul's Gentile mission, but they didn't necessarily endorse it. They allowed him to preach his gospel, but they didn't adopt it themselves.

It seems to me that Paul then goes on in Gal 3 to lay out the logic of his teachings, which I assume is what he laid out to the leaders, maybe not. Either way it seems to me that Paul was laying out his unique teachings to the leaders. The leaders then said, "okay, that's fine." I assume those teachings involved his argument for why Gentiles didn't need to undergo circumcision in order to enter the covenant of Abraham, which is what he goes on to explain in Gal 3.

But Peter is an apostle to the circumcised, so what is Peter's gospel if the point of Paul's gospel is telling Gentiles why they don't need to be circumcised? Is Peter's gospel about the Final Judgement? Is the whole story that all agreed that the Final Judgement was at hand and that faith in Jesus Christ was required to enter the kingdom of heaven? Paul's special twist was that Gentiles could do this without the need of circumcision?

Or was Peter's gospel something else? Is the only purpose of Jesus in Paul's scheme to get Gentile off the hook for circumcision, or does he have some other function for Jews as well?

John2
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by John2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:13 pm

But Peter is an apostle to the circumcised, so what is Peter's gospel if the point of Paul's gospel is telling Gentiles why they don't need to be circumcised? Is Peter's gospel about the Final Judgement? Is the whole story that all agreed that the Final Judgement was at hand and that faith in Jesus Christ was required to enter the kingdom of heaven? Paul's special twist was that Gentiles could do this without the need of circumcision?

Or was Peter's gospel something else? Is the only purpose of Jesus in Paul's scheme to get Gentile off the hook for circumcision, or does he have some other function for Jews as well?

As I said in a following post, I think Peter's gospel is all laid out by Peter himself in 1 Peter.

rgprice
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by rgprice » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:23 pm

1 Peter is just a forgery, it has nothing to do with Peter.

John2
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Re: Did the Jerusalem church even preach Jesus Christ?

Post by John2 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:44 pm

rgprice wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:23 pm
1 Peter is just a forgery, it has nothing to do with Peter.

What makes you think that? Just curious.

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