Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

And yes, this translations makes a big different because in one case Paul is asking them to believe himself, in the other case he is asking them to believe God. It makes far more sense that he is asking them to believe God, given that he follows up with a discussion about Abraham believing God.

Option 1: "Don't you believe the colorful picture I painted for you?"
Option 2: "Don't you believe what God has foretold?"

I think its obvious what Paul would more likely be saying here...
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

To quote Ben from the linked thread by robert j
But that is not when Jesus was forewritten as crucified. Jesus was forewritten as crucified by Moses and by the prophets: ages ago.
Which is why at first I read this as Paul talking about the Galatians having written a prophecy themselves. To me such a reading ties in with the question about, "Did you receive the Spirit?" To me that could mean, "Did you receive the Spirit of prophecy by obeying the law or by listening to God?"

I'm not saying that's the right reading, I'm saying that's how I first read it in the presence of "forewritten."
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

Having read through the linked thread from robert j, I think I now agree with the reading along the lines of : I showed you with your own eyes that Jesus Christ was already written as [having been] crucified.

Basically I agree with robert j's reading. And I think that's exactly what has caused so many problems with the translation.
gryan
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by gryan »

rgprice wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:08 pm I showed you... that Jesus Christ was already written as [having been] crucified.
Does Paul ever do that?

Something like an OT foreshadowing of the crucifixion (+ resurrection), appears in Hebrews 11:

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

But does Paul ever do that: Interpret the OT as a foretelling of the crucifixion of Jesus?
robert j
Posts: 1007
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by robert j »

gryan wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:47 pm
But does Paul ever do that: Interpret the OT as a foretelling of the crucifixion of Jesus?
No. Paul did not.

Paul used the Jewish scriptures to foretell God’s Abrahamic blessing coming to the Gentiles in Paul’s own time.

However, the Jewish scriptures as foretelling the events surrounding the death of Jesus Christ only became necessary when the author of GMark imagined how a story of Paul’s Jesus Christ might play-out if set in recent times in Judea during the governorship of Pilate.

Several other subsequent Christian authors followed suit, and the concept of the life and death of Jesus Christ having been foretold in the scriptures eventually became one of the most foundational concepts of the Christian faith.

The author of GMark had another problem to solve --- how to characterize Paul’s Jesus Christ having come in the likeness of man. Mark chose to portray a man Jesus being possessed by the heavenly spirit during the baptism scene.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by Bernard Muller »

to rgprice,
Option 1: "Don't you believe the colorful picture I painted for you?"
Option 2: "Don't you believe what God has foretold?"
By reading the different translation, the Thayer's Greek Lexicon and the underlying Greek, I think this translaltion might be the most correct:
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was openly depicted as having been crucified."
Why having been crucified?
Because "crucified" is in a perfect participle (as in Co 1:23 & 2:20), as an action which happened in the past.
And "openly depicted" is according to the Thayer's Lexicon: "2. to depict or portray openly": https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 4270&t=RSV

Furthermore, I cannot imagine Paul reminding these Galatians he showed them an image of a crucified Jesus Christ ("the colorful picture I painted for you?" :) )

So why Paul would say that to his Galatians?
My take: the Judaizers might have thought that Paul said Jesus was executed, avoiding "crucified", since crucifixion was shameful and for rebels or criminals, creating doubts about Jesus' character. And Paul said it was not true (but maybe he was bluffing, taking advantage Paul converted them some 5 years before, enough time to forget pieces of his preaching.)


Cordially, Bernard
rgprice
Posts: 2058
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by rgprice »

When you look at the context it seems pretty clear that it is "forewritten".

YLT:
6 according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;

7 know ye, then, that those of faith -- these are sons of Abraham,

8 and the Writing having foreseen that by faith God doth declare righteous the nations did proclaim before the good news to Abraham --

9 `Blessed in thee shall be all the nations;' so that those of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham,
NRSV:
6 Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” 7 so, you see, those who believe are the descendants of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, declared the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the Gentiles shall be blessed in you.” 9 For this reason, those who believe are blessed with Abraham who believed.
In the first part he's saying, the writings have foreseen the crucifixion of Jesus. Don't you believe what God is telling you? Look at Abraham, Abraham believed what God told him. The scriptures also foresaw that God would declare himself to all the nations.

Seems pretty clear. Its an obvious example of making an point and then reinforcing that same point by reiterating it. Paul talking about how he himself is so good at painting pictures with words is kind of ridiculous.
davidmartin
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:51 pm

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by davidmartin »

Furthermore, I cannot imagine Paul reminding these Galatians he showed them an image of a crucified Jesus Christ ("the colorful picture I painted for you?" :) )
Maybe they saw the Shroud of Turin?
gryan
Posts: 1120
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:11 am

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by gryan »

Bernard Muller wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:30 pm
By reading the different translation, the Thayer's Greek Lexicon and the underlying Greek, I think this translaltion might be the most correct:
"...Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was openly depicted as having been crucified."
Why having been crucified?
Because "crucified" is in a perfect participle (as in Co 1:23 & 2:20), as an action which happened in the past.
οἷς κατ’ ὀφθαλμοὺς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη ἐσταυρωμένος;
Before your very eyes, Jesus Christ was openly depicted written formerly as having been crucified.

οἴδατε δὲ ὅτι δι’ ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς εὐηγγελισάμην ὑμῖν τὸ πρότερον (Gal. 4:13)
You know that it was because of... that I evangelized you formerly.

I have argued for reading προεγράφη in its literal sense--"written formerly"--because I can easily imagine Paul (as in the closing where he says "See what large letters..." ) reminding the Galatians of how they, as co-senders (Cf "the brothers with me" Gal 1:2), had literally seen the letters of an epistle he had written formerly before their very eyes. Would it bolster my argument to suggest that the πρό in προεγράφη and in πρότερον refer to a former time when Paul was with them in the flesh as as writer and preacher respectively?
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Galatians 3:1 "portrayed as crucified"

Post by Bernard Muller »

to gryan,
I have argued for reading προεγράφη in its literal sense--"written formerly"--because I can easily imagine Paul (as in the closing where he says "See what large letters..." ) reminding the Galatians of how they, as co-senders (Cf "the brothers with me" Gal 1:2), had literally seen the letters of an epistle he had written formerly before their very eyes.
"the brothers with me" refers to those with Paul when he wrote Galatians, certainly not referring to his converts in Galatia.

Cordially, Bernard
Post Reply