On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Kapyong
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Kapyong »

Gday,
Bernard Muller wrote:So Neil and theomise, in a few words disagree with me, with some so-called evidence or none, two against one, and then you flip flop.
Initially I went along with your view, but as problems appeared with it, (yes, problems brought up by others) I changed my mind. There is a fundamental problem with your methodology - apocalyptic writings set in a another period is quite a common thing.
Bernard Muller wrote:Why don't you put that in a poll.
I AM operating a sort of poll here - I am summarising the positions here and sometimes judging between opposing theories.
Bernard Muller wrote:People will vote according to their agenda and because of the make up of the members of that forum, the late gospels option will win big.
Everyone has a point of view - someone's ELSES view is an 'agenda' :)
Bernard Muller wrote:Case close. You'll be happy, most here will be happy. Happy ending.
But I doubt a late Gospel case will convince anyone - seriously - it's a foil.
Bernard Muller wrote:But stop that charade.
As for me, I am stopping to contribute on that thread.
Charade? I've been up front from the beginning.
I'm doing an experiment to see how late the Gospels can be dated while doing the least violence to the external record.


Kapyong
bcedaifu
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by bcedaifu »

Stephan Huller wrote: Indeed in the very next sentence we read more of this transposition of Marcion for Paul - identified as the Paraclete of the Marcionites by Origen -
Really?

Origen of Alexandria, again?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=752&start=320
bcedaifu, responding to sh' betise, [b]yesterday[/b], three pages back in the thread, wrote: We need the precise reference from Origen, in Greek, and an elaboration of the history of this remark, attributed to Origen--> from which source did the Greek “original” arise? Does it manifest evidence of tampering? What is the copying history of this manuscript containing a reference to Marcion's interpretation of Matthew's anecdote about the importance of washing one's hands before eating (Matthew 15:2)?...How does this commentary on Matthew 15:3 by Origen relate to Marcion? Does Origen specifically name Marcion? Does Origen contest Marcion's supposed claim to be an apostle of Jesus? Give us the link and the Greek text, so that we can verify this claim, above.
Are we to understand that the Greek text of Origen of Alexandria, explicitly, and deliberately, (not a redaction by later authors) confounded a human, (that is, a "comforter" going back to Isaiah 40:1 in LXX, παρακαλεῖτε, i.e. a HUMAN) in this case Paul/Saul (or Marcion), with the third member of the tripartite commission, the holy spirit--"paraclete" in John 14:16, a non-human entity in Greek mythological thinking, i.e. Christianity? Origen was a Christian, right? He was fluent in Hebrew, but his analysis was Hellenistic GREEK gnosticism, (Plato), was it not? What would induce Origen of Alexandria, a scholar, to identify ANY human, Marcion, or anyone else, as the holy spirit of the triune godhead?

We need the authentic GREEK text, not a Latin version.
bcedaifu
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by bcedaifu »

Kapyong wrote:I'm doing an experiment to see how late the Gospels can be dated while doing the least violence to the external record.
Just my opinion, I think this thread is meritorious, and you are to be congratulated for guiding its elaboration, with a minimum level of personal attacks....

I don't share your idea about how one can best establish the "most reasonable" explanation for the age and sequence, of the ancient texts, in other words, I disagree with this notion of "doing the least violence to the external record".

Our goal ought not focus on what OTHERS imagine, believe, or think ("external record").

Our goal should be to explore why what others imagine, believe, or think, is shortsighted, fallacious, or misguided, based on an honest appraisal of the actual data, not someone's translation of a lacune filled copy of an obviously redacted document copied in an Italian monastery in an era where burning at the stake was the norm for those who dared to question the pope's edicts.

This nonsense about "oral tradition", Kapy, here you are on the wrong track. We don't have recordings. We don't know beans about what gossip had been exchanged. Books, stones, coins, mosaics, those are things we can employ in our quest. Gossip we cannot use.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by neilgodfrey »

[quote="Kapyong"
Bernard Muller wrote:People will vote according to their agenda and because of the make up of the members of that forum, the late gospels option will win big.
The funny side to this is that if you, Bernard, were not so agenda-driven yourself and if you did not have such predictable knee-jerk reactions to anything I write, you could possibly have noticed that with the arguments I have presented here for the Gospel of Mark is a very strong case for an early dating, not a late one!

(Several times I gave you a perfect opportunity for you to turn my argument around and tell me "There! Even your argument points to a date around 70!" But of course if my argument is true then yours is false.)

Re the apocalyptic genre argument . . . .(you are correct, by the way, when you say that Mark did not have to stick to any one genre -- he didn't: he combined a number of genres -- authors do that sometimes. But if he did not write in any recognizable genres at all then his work would have been incomprehensible. But I suspect you won't understand or agree with that) . . . . anyway, re the apocalyptic genre argument, it actually argues for a date soon after 70 if you had taken the trouble to try to understand it.

True, I see other indications in Mark that point to the possibility of a later date and cannot deny the possibility that it may even have been composed towards the middle of the second century. I lean slightly (perhaps slightly more than slightly) at the moment towards the around 70 date (but not for any of the invalid reasons you have proposed) but am willing to swing to any other point between 70 and 140 in the future as we learn more. Meanwhile I'm more than happy to argue any point on the premise that Mark dates to around 70.

I'm not sure you can understand or approve of this sort of tentativeness and flexibility of thought.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

You obviously don't know many German people. It isn't just a racial thing. I was told by a Jewish lady I knew a funny story about an old German Jewish survivor who ran a Kibbutz. When my friend Heidi got to the kibbutz the German (Jewish) lady told her how to lay each table down to the correct way to pair salt and pepper shakers. When a few weeks later Heidi decided to reverse the order of the salt and pepper shakers (from salt beside pepper to pepper beside salt) she could see the lady coming behind her to correct the proper order. Close-mindedness is a German cultural trait especially among older people of that generation.
For your information, I have never been a German. My parent were not Germans. They never lived in Germany, same for myself.
That's explained in the first few lines on my mini-bio on my website. But don't read it, rather presume. Typical.
Now you can start to do some character assassination on the fact I am French in origin.

Cordially, Bernard
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Stephan Huller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Stephan Huller »

Now to continue with my demonstration from last night before I got too tired to continue, I think it is extremely unusual that Tertullian acknowledges that the Marcionites acknowledge Marcion not Paul was responsible for their understanding about the separation of the Law and the Gospel. Again, Tertullian begins by establishing - against the Marcionite understanding - that Marcion lived in the Antonine period (the reasons for doubting this claim are summed up in my quote from Tyson). Then after establishing that the Marcionites say Marcion - not Paul - established the rule of the separation of Law and gospel in a manner which resembles the situation that confronts us from the beginning of to the Galatians before moving on to tackle Paul's role (= the Catholic version of Marcion) in the same controversy.

Indeed this is where we can begin to see the underlying deceptiveness of Tertullian's strategy in Book One. For at the beginning of chapter 20 he acknowledges that the Marcionites put Marcion in the role of Paul (for our tradition) rejecting the adulteration of the gospel - corrupted with 'Judaizing' (we'll leave the meaning of that for now). But in the previous chapter as we noted he goes to great length to show that Marcion is separated from Jesus - not Paul - by over a hundred years. Why is that? Why doesn't Tertullian say Marcion is separated from Paul by a century? Wouldn't that make more sense given the context?

I think the reason for this is plain when you read on from chapter 19 to 20 to 21 and what follows. Even though the real point of the exercise is to refute the Marcionite assumption that Marcion was 'the head of the apostles' (as Marutha) Tertullian is extremely clever and subtle about it. He got the ideas from Irenaeus no doubt. What he does is effectively to (a) let the Marcionites speak as they do (i.e. in terms of 'Marcion' doing this or that in Galatians) but rebut their claims with the Catholic interpretation of the same material (i.e. 'Paul' doing this or that in Galatians). Then when this established the reason for distinguishing between the alleged dates from Jesus to Marcion make the Marcionite interpretation of Galatians seem to be an innovation with no need for being taken seriously. Look again:
They allege that in separating the Law and the Gospel Marcion did not so much invent a new rule as refurbish a rule previously debased (= Paul in Galatians for a Catholic). So then Christ, our most patient Lord, has through all these years borne with a perversion of the preaching about himself, until, if you please, Marcion should come to his rescue (= Paul is called in Galatians to preserve the truth of the gospel). They object that Peter and those others, pillars of the apostleship, were reproved by Paul (= notice the sudden change) for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel—by that Paul, you understand (ab illo certe Paulo or 'by that very Paul') who, yet inexperienced in grace, and anxious lest he had run or was running in vain, was then for the first time conferring with those who were apostles before him.
The point here clearly is that the question of whether it was Marcion or Paul who was at that narrative in Galatians. This is why Tertullian here puts forward Paul's presence as if it were controversial - i.e. that it was Paul rather than Marcion who was opposed by Peter and the other pillars). All that immediately follows builds on this distinction - i.e. because it was really Paul rather than Marcion who did these things the text should be understood completely differently
So then if, as still a neophyte, in his zeal against Judaism he thought something in their conduct called for reproof, their indiscriminate associations in fact, though he himself was afterwards to become in practice all things to all men—to the Jews as a Jew, to those under the law as himself under the law—do you allege that that reproof, concerning conduct and nothing more, conduct which its critic was afterwards to approve of, must be supposed to refer to some deviation in their preaching concerning God? On the contrary, in respect of the unity of their preaching, as we have read earlier in this epistle, they had joined their right hands, and by the very act of having divided their spheres of work had signified their agreement in the fellowship of the gospel: as he says in another place, Whether it were I or they, so we preach.

Also, although he writes of how certain false brethren had crept in unawares, desiring to remove the Galatians to another gospel, he himself shows clearly that that adulteration of the gospel was not concerned with diversion of the faith towards another god and another Christ, but with adherence to the regulations of the law. In fact he found them insisting on circumcision, and observing the seasons and days and months and years of those Jewish solemnities which they ought to have known were now revoked in accordance with the reforming ordinance of that Creator who had of old taught of this very thing by his prophets ... So then, in commending this sort of circumcision and this sort of fallow, the apostle was expressing disapproval of those antiquated solemnities ... Now if even their Creator had long ago rejected all these, and the apostle's pronouncement was that they must now be rejected, evidently the fact that the apostle's judgement is in agreement with the Creator's decrees, proves that no other god was the subject of the apostle's preaching, but only he whose decrees the apostle was anxious should now be acknowledged, while in this behalf he stigmatized as false apostles and false brethren such as should divert the Gospel of the Creator'sChrist from the newness which the Creator had foretold, to the oldness which the Creator had rejected.
The point is that both Marcionites and Catholics agree that Marcion was responsible for the antitheses between Law and gospel but the Marcionites went so far as to read Marcion as being present in the narrative of Galatians - i.e. as the very 'apostle' in the place of our Paul with all his assumptions. The Catholics could get away with these substitutions because, as Tertullian confesses in Book Five, they kept the identity of their 'apostle' (i.e. Marcion) hidden.
Stephan Huller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Stephan Huller »

For your information, I have never been a German. My parent were not Germans.
So you're just old. The same applies for old people of any generation. Narrow minded old man. And French from where? Alsace Lorraine? That was German. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... error.html. But still old people exhibit stubbornness from all places
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Bernard Muller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Kapyong,
Initially I went along with your view, but as problems appeared with it, (yes, problems brought up by others) I changed my mind. There is a fundamental problem with your methodology - apocalyptic writings set in a another period is quite a common thing.
So what's the consequence about gMark: the celestial events and the visible second coming are set in the past, along with the fall of Jerusalem, despite the future tense used all along. Black is white, white is black: that makes more sense.
Or you forgot that "Mark" indicated the second coming (with the celestial events) should happen very soon after the fall of Jerusalem.

Cordially, Bernard
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Bernard Muller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Kapyong,
But I doubt a late Gospel case will convince anyone - seriously - it's a foil.
Are you sure? if that case won't convince anyone, why most who indicated their views on the matter are finding excuses to shoot down the internal & external evidence against gospels dated in the 1st century?
However it seems to me that Neil accepted a 1st century dating for gMatthew, which would cause gMark to have an earlier 1st century dating.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Neil,
The funny side to this is that if you, Bernard, were not so agenda-driven yourself and if you did not have such predictable knee-jerk reactions to anything I write, you could possibly have noticed that with the arguments I have presented here for the Gospel of Mark is a very strong case for an early dating, not a late one!
I was not expecting that from you, after what you wrote on the matter.
Re the apocalyptic genre argument . . . .(you are correct, by the way, when you say that Mark did not have to stick to any one genre -- he didn't: he combined a number of genres -- authors do that sometimes. But if he did not write in any recognizable genres at all then his work would have been incomprehensible. But I suspect you won't understand or agree with that) . . . . anyway, re the apocalyptic genre argument, it actually argues for a date soon after 70 if you had taken the trouble to try to understand it.

Boy, am I dreaming? Is it a mirage?
As for "Mark", he did not play on only one note, but many. I mean devices used in his answers to doubts, problems, crisis, anguish, impatience & disbelief in his community.
I'm not sure you can understand or approve of this sort of tentativeness and flexibility of thought.

I do not approve that you are not clear in stating what you think. And I do not see why the celestial events and the visible second of gMark, if considered as metaphors, would argue for a dating of gMark soon after the events of 70 in Judea.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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