On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Reasons AGAINST a late Gospel dating

Post by neilgodfrey »

andrewcriddle wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote: If we opt for Mark 1:9's reference to Nazareth as original then we have reasons to believe that the gospel was written quite some time after 70 CE. We would need to allow time for the village to be established and then to be associated with Jesus and for this association to become a by-word that came to be known and understood to an author probably in Rome or maybe Syria.
This argument requires two controversial claims.
a/ That a village named Nazareth in Galilee did not exist c 50 CE.
b/ However such a village did exist c 100 CE.

IIUC most of those who accept claim a/ would doubt claim b/ e.g. they would date the founding of Nazareth after the Bar Kochba revolt.

Andrew Criddle
That's why I said "if". But from all that I have read the evidence for both a and b is stronger than many seem to acknowledge and I do believe it is a reasonable claim consistent with the data -- that there is no evidence of an actual settlement prior to around 70 but that it is arguable that evidence for settlement does appear by the end of the century.

Too much of the controversy is unfortunately polemics and character assassination.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by neilgodfrey »

Neil Godfrey wrote:
Bernard Muller wrote: Yes, I agree, but this is not the issue.
No, it IS the issue. Context is everything.
Sorry, context is not everything. Genre is also (almost) everything. Apocalyptic genre uses metaphorical imagery of heavenly bodies and earthly desolation. That's what apocalyptic literature does.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2857
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by andrewcriddle »

Stephan Huller wrote:Robert Price on traditions of Marcion's activity in the first century:
One ancient tradition (associated with Papias) makes Marcion the amanuensis (secretary) of the evangelist John at the end of the first century. That is probably not historically true, but no one would have told the story if they had not assumed Marcion was living at that time. It was a general tendency of early Catholic apologists to late-date the so-called "heretics" to distance them from the apostolic period in the same way apologists today prefer the earliest possible date for the epistles and gospels. [Pre-Nicene Canon p. viii]
I think this is an oversimplification of the evidence. But I still think the general sense is right. Irenaeus strained to make Polycarp's claim of condemning Marcion credible.
This claim about Marcion appears to derive from an unusual interpretation of the Latin anti-Marcionite prologue to John. See Marcion Papias... The original appears to have read something like.
Hoc igitur evangelium post apocalypsin scriptum manifestum et datum est ecclesiis in Asia a Iohanne adhuc in corpore constituto, sicut Papias nomine Heirapolitanus episcopus, discipulus Iohannis et carus, in exotericis suis, id est, in extremis quinque libris retulit; qui hoc evangelium Iohanne sibi dictante conscripsit. verum Marcion hereticus, cum ab eo fuisset inprobatus eo quod contraria sentiebat, abiectus est a Iohanne. hic vero scripta vel epistulas ad eum pertulerat a fratribus missas qui in Ponto erant, fideles in Christo Iesu domino nostro. This gospel, then, after the apocalypse was written was made manifest and given to the churches in Asia by John, as yet still in the body, as the Heiropolitan, Papias by name, dear disciple of John, transmitted in his Exoteric, that is, the outside five books. He wrote down this gospel while John dictated. Truly Marcion the heretic, when he had been disapproved by him because he supposed contrary things, was thrown out by John. He in truth carried writings or epistles sent to him from the brothers who were in Pontus, faithful in Christ Jesus our Lord.
See Papias The text is corrupt and varies in different manuscripts. Eisler and others have argued that the original had Marcion as John's secretary rather than Papias.

Andrew Criddle
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Neil,
But did you read Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 11, too? The victory of the Maccabees in Daniel 7 is also set in the future tense -- in clouds and heavenly thrones. But we know that Daniel was writing about that victory with apocalyptic symbolism as a future event -- future because the character of Daniel was set in the Babylonian/Persian period. Daniel is made to speak and narrate his vision from the setting of the Persian era.
First, I do not see Daniel 7 referring to the victory of the Maccabees. There is no connection whatsoever.
Second, yes, all the events after Daniel alleged times are prophesied in the future. That's very normal. Again I do not see the relevance.
Of course the stars falling etc did not happen. Period. Literally! A literal interpretation of words that had always hitherto been used in the literature of Mark's Jewish/biblical literary culture figuratively requires some justification, not assumption. To decide when to interpret a text figuratively or literally actually requires some justification. We cannot just declare that a text should be read literally by default -- especially when the words in that text had always been used figuratively in similar contexts before.
Not figuratively in Isaiah and gMark. Why would you think that? Figuratively to what? What would they mean by having the stars falling and the sun & moon darkened in the future?
You are the one who is required to give justification, because that's not what someone would understand when reading or listening about the text right after it was published. Nobody would say: Oh that second coming that men would see is a metaphor (for what?), or a figure (for what?). What would be underlying under these metaphors or figures?
And for these celestial events, the same questions.
No, it IS the issue. Context is everything.
Why don't you explain how the context would change the fact that "Mark" prophesied events he meant to be understood as true (such as the very physical fall of Jerusalem, after the fact) and the celestial events with the visible second coming (before they would happen), which you think would not be physical. Why would "Mark" mix up physical events and metaphorical events in his alleged prophecy?
And why would "Mark" be preoccupied to follow a genre? And that genre about prophesying in metaphors and figures is far from obvious and demonstrated to exist.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by neilgodfrey »

Bernard Muller wrote: First, I do not see Daniel 7 referring to the victory of the Maccabees. There is no connection whatsoever.
Of course there's not. I'm quite sure not a single bit of legitimate evidence to support the idea that there is. Anyone who says otherwise needs to read your webpage. I was just being silly.

You win, Bernard. Trying to have a reasoned conversation with you is like undergoing the eternal punishment of Sisyphus. I have more interesting and useful things to do since it is obviously going to be a waste of time trying to share a new and different thought with you, something you did not consider years ago when preparing your website. Which is a pity. I'm sure you're a nice enough bloke but by jesus you are among the most closed-minded people I have ever met and utterly incapable of seeing the difference between your own interpretations and raw data (your interpretations are mere facts in your mind) and utterly impervious to the possibility that there is much more to learn than you have written up on your website all those years ago.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Stephan Huller »

Marcion, Paul, and the first century. This is an important statement in the First Book Against Marcion:
They (the Marcionites) allege that in separating the Law and the Gospel Marcion did not so much invent a new rule as refurbish a rule previously debased.

Aiunt enim Marcionem non tam innovasse regulam separationc legis et evangelii quam retro adulteratam recurasse.

So then Christ, our most patient Lord, has through all these years borne with a perversion of the preaching about himself, until, if you please, Marcion should come to his rescue.

O Christe, patientissime domine, qui tot annis interversionem praedicationis tui sustinuisti, donec scilicet tibi Marcion subveniret!

They object that Peter and those others, pillars of the apostleship, were reproved by Paul for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel—by that Paul, you understand, who, yet inexperienced in grace, and anxious lest he had run or was running in vain, was then for the first time conferring with those who were apostles before him.

Nam et ipsum Petrum ceterosque, columnas apostolatus, a Paulo reprehensos opponunt quod non recto pede incederent ad evangelii veritatem, ab illo certe Paulo qui adhuc in gratia rudis, trepidans denique ne in vacuum cucurrisset aut curreret, tunc primum cum antecessoribus apostolis conferebat, [Adv Marc. 1.20]
I find this passage interesting because Marcion is suddenly stuck in the middle of a paragraph which we would think would be about Paul:
They allege that in separating the Law and the Gospel Marcion did not so much invent a new rule as refurbish a rule previously adulterated.
Tertullian is clearly reporting something that the Marcionites say - i.e. 'Marcion did not so much as invent a new rule' [about there being two different gods connected with the Law and the gospel respectively] 'as refurbish a rule previously debased' or Holmes translates it 'as restore it after it had been previously adulterated.' The language here and all that follows is drawn from Galatians chapter 2 as Moll notes "He refers to the Apostle's Letter to the Galatians, in which Peter and the other pillars of the Apostleship (that is, John and James) were reprehended by Paul for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel. This rebuke of Peter by Paul seems to have been of great importance to Marcion, as not only does Tertullian refer to it four times in his works against him36, but it already had been discussed in Irenaeus." [p. 83, 84] But Moll and others fail to take into account that when the discussion is still placed in the mouth of the Marcionites the role of 'rescuer' in Galatians is Marcion rather than - or in the place of - Paul. This very much seems to echo Marutha's basic observance that "Instead of Peter they (the Marcionites) set up for themselves Marcion as the head of the apostles." Instead we might well say - in place of Paul.

Indeed in the very next sentence we read more of this transposition of Marcion for Paul - identified as the Paraclete of the Marcionites by Origen - when Tertullian goes on to say "so then Christ, our most patient Lord, has through all these years borne with a perversion of the preaching about himself, until, if you please, Marcion should come to his rescue." As noted this is the Paraclete doctrine of Mani and Muhammad only now placed in the second century. But did the Marcionites really believe that Marcion lived in the mid second century? No I don't think so. Everything about this section seems to make sense only if the Marcionites identified our Paul as their Marcion.

The text continues as we just saw "they object that Peter and those others, pillars of the apostleship, were reproved by Paul for not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospela—by that Paul, you understand, who, yet inexperienced in grace, and anxious lest he had run or was running in vain, was then for the first time conferring with those who were apostles before him." But in the first two sentences the role of 'Paul' was being filled by Marcion. Why is that? Because the Marcionites identified Marcion as head of the apostles in place of our Paul. When the material being covered obviously applied to 'Paul' in Galatians, Tertullian's argument changes to discuss 'Paul.' Yet it is immediately clear that for the Marcionites Paul was one and the same with Marcion.

Indeed if we go back to the previous section (Adv Marc. 1.19) here Tertullian goes out of his way to identify Marcion as living in a completely different age than Jesus:
'In the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar Christ Jesus vouchsafed to glide down from heaven, a salutary spirit.' In what year of the elder Antoninus the pestilential breeze of Marcion's salvation, whose opinion this was, breathed out from his own Pontus, I have forborne to inquire. But of this I am sure, that he is an Antoninian heretic, impious under Pius. Now from
Tiberius to Antoninus there are a matter of a hundred and fifteen and a half years and half a month. This length of time do they posit between Christ and Marcion (Tantundem temporis ponunt inter Christum et Marcionem). Since therefore it was under Antoninus that, as I have proved, Marcion first brought this god on the scene, at once, if you are in your senses, the fact is clear. The dates themselves put it beyond argument that that which first came to light under Antoninus did not come to light under Tiberius: that is, that the god of Antoninus' reign was not the God of the reign of Tiberius, and therefore he who it is admitted was first reported to exist by Marcion, had not been revealed by Christ.
But is Tertullian telling the truth here? Did the Marcionites really identify that a hundred and fifteen and a half years and half a month lay between Christ and Marcion? I don't think so for the very reasons laid out by Hoffmann ""Tertullian's calculation is not offered, therefore, in the interest of supplying biographical information, but rather in order to prove that Marcion's teaching did not arise before the middle decades of the second century. Obviously, however, if the Marcionites had accepted this reckoning, as Tertullian claims, there would be no need for such proof. The only possible conclusion is that the Marcionites themselves posited a much earlier date for the founding of their church and, accordingly, for the teaching of Marcion."
Last edited by Stephan Huller on Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stephan Huller
Posts: 3009
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Stephan Huller »

you are among the most closed-minded people I have ever met and utterly incapable of seeing the difference between your own interpretations and raw data
You obviously don't know many German people. It isn't just a racial thing. I was told by a Jewish lady I knew a funny story about an old German Jewish survivor who ran a Kibbutz. When my friend Heidi got to the kibbutz the German (Jewish) lady told her how to lay each table down to the correct way to pair salt and pepper shakers. When a few weeks later Heidi decided to reverse the order of the salt and pepper shakers (from salt beside pepper to pepper beside salt) she could see the lady coming behind her to correct the proper order. Close-mindedness is a German cultural trait especially among older people of that generation.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by neilgodfrey »

Stephan Huller wrote:
you are among the most closed-minded people I have ever met and utterly incapable of seeing the difference between your own interpretations and raw data
You obviously don't know many German people. It isn't just a racial thing. I was told by a Jewish lady I knew a funny story about an old German Jewish survivor who ran a Kibbutz. When my friend Heidi got to the kibbutz the German (Jewish) lady told her how to lay each table down to the correct way to pair salt and pepper shakers. When a few weeks later Heidi decided to reverse the order of the salt and pepper shakers (from salt beside pepper to pepper beside salt) she could see the lady coming behind her to correct the proper order. Close-mindedness is a German cultural trait especially among older people of that generation.
So Bernard's website sets out the rules for how to lay the table and woe to anyone who would try to ignore or change it.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Stephan Huller wrote:You obviously don't know many German people. It isn't just a racial thing. I was told by a Jewish lady I knew a funny story about an old German Jewish survivor who ran a Kibbutz. When my friend Heidi got to the kibbutz the German (Jewish) lady told her how to lay each table down to the correct way to pair salt and pepper shakers. When a few weeks later Heidi decided to reverse the order of the salt and pepper shakers (from salt beside pepper to pepper beside salt) she could see the lady coming behind her to correct the proper order. Close-mindedness is a German cultural trait especially among older people of that generation.
Exactly! :mrgreen: After the washing-up my colleague sorted the cups in the cupboard of our office in a way that all cups are exactly in one direction with the handle. Then I go into the kitchen and say to the cups: "At ease!"
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6162
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: On dating the Gospels late e.g. 120CE

Post by neilgodfrey »

I'd like to ask Bernard what new things he has learned in the past twelve months: new information, new understanding of the past, and new insights into strengths and weaknesses of the way he studies and learns. I think most of us would be embarrassed at something we once too enthusiastically argued in the past but I wonder if Bernard ever has that feeling. Bernard? Comment?
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
Post Reply