Original Form of the Ascension of Isaiah

[andrewcriddle]

Material from the Inquisitor demonstrating knowledge by the Cathars of the Ascension of Isaiah
From http://archive.org/stream/beitrgezursek ... l_djvu.txt

quod quidam bonus homo eorum
sectae erat, qui erat dubius, an bonam fidem teneret, etro-
gabat Patrem , ut ei ostenderet, si bonam fidem et bonam
viam tenebat , et quod etiam ei ostenderet gloriam suam.
Et quadam die, dum sie oraret, apparuit ei angelus et dixit
ei, quod ipse venerat, ut ostenderet ei gloriam Patris sancti
et si fidem bonam et viam tenebat; et fecit dictum homi-
nem ascendere super Collum suum et eum portando perve-
nit usque ad primum coelum post mundum istum turbulen-
tum et deposuit eum ibi, et vidit dictus homo dominum di-
cti mundi et coeli et accedens ad eum volebat ipsum ado-
rare , sed fuit prohibitus per dictum angelum, qui ei dixit,
quod non adoraret illum, quia non erat Pater ejus. Et de-
inde dictus angelus accipiens illum bonum hominem super
Collum suum portavit eum ad secundum mundum et secun-
dum coelum et ibi eum deposuit , et videns dictus homo
dominum secundi mundi stantem in majori gloria, quam
staret dominus primi mundi , voluit eum adorare , sed fuit
prohibitus per dictum angelum. Et eodem modo fuit por-
tatus dictus homo per dictum angelum per omnes alios coe-
los usque ad septimum coelum, et dictus homo voluit ado-
rare dictos dominos coelorum et mundorum , qui majoris
gloriae erant, quanto superiores erant, et fuit prohibitum per
dictum angelum eos adorare. Tandem portatus in septimo
coelo et videns dominum dicti coeli angelus dixit ei, quod
ille erat Pater sanctus, et quod illum adoraret. Et accedens
dictus homo ad Patrem adoravit eum, et dictus Pater san-
ctus interrogavit dictum hominem, uride veniebat. Qui re-
spondit, quod de terra tribulationum^ et videns dictus homo
in' dicto coelo magnam claritatem et mnltos angelos et
pnlchra viridaria et aves cantantes , et qiiod erat ibi gaii-
dium sine tristitia; non erat ibi sitis vel fames , nee frigiis
nee calor , sed temperies magna , dixit Patri sancto , quod
placeret ei , quod de cetero remaneret cum eo. Et Pater
sanctus respondit, quod non poterat ibi remanere pro tunc,
quia caro nata de corruptione non poterat ibi manere^ sed
oportebat, quod descenderet ad terram tribulationis et prae-
dicaret illam fidem , quam jam sciebat , quia illa erat fides
ejus. Et dictus homo rogavit Patrem , quod per aliquam
pausam secum staret, quod et ei concessit; et post pausam
dictus angelus dixit dicto homini , quod ascenderet super
colJum ejus , quia hora erat , quod descenderet; et dictus
homo respondit ei, quod adhuc non steterat cum Patre de
prima usque ad tertiam. Et dictus angelus dixit ei , quod
immo steterat per 32 annos , et ita inveniret , quando esset
in terra. Et dictus homo ascendens super coUum dicti an-
geli et descendens per omnes dictos coelos venit ad mun-
dum istum et postea praedicavit illa^ quae viderat. Et sie,
ut dicebat , eorum fides et secta confirmata fuit.

Dixit, quod inveniebatur in prophetia Isaiae prophetae,
quod quidam bonus homo erat, id est haereticus, qui propter
verba , quae audiverat ab aliis bonis hominibus , qui inter
se discordabant, et etiam propter illa, quae legerat inlibris,
incepit dubitare circa fidem bonorum hominum, id est hae-
reticorum, et tunc posuit se ad legendum in libris, ut pos-
set cognoscere, an bonam fidem tenent vel malam, et legit
tribus diebus et duabus noctibus et non fuit lassatus , nee
dormivit; et cum sie legeret, venit ad eum angelus Patris
sancti et dixit ei , quare dubitabat in fide bonorum homi-
num? qui respondit ei, quod propter aliqua, quae invenie-
bat in libris, et propter hoc etiam, quod boni homines inter
se in fide discordabant. Et tunc dictus angelus dixit dicto
bono homini , id est haeretico: Non dubites , sed ascende
super Collum meum. Et dictus bonus homo ascendit super
Collum angeli, et dictus angelus ascendit cum dicto bono
homine usque ad primum coelum et invenerunt ibi populum
multum laetum et habebat super se dominum, qui eis prae-
dicabat. Quae cum vidisset dictus bonus homo, voluit ado-
rare, et dictus angelus dixit ei: Et quid vis facere? et
dictus bonus homo respondit, quod volebat adorare patrem;
cui dictiis aiigelus dixit , quod iion erat ille Pater, sed illi
Spiritus erant , qui non liabebant bonum , nee malum , iiec
habituri essent iisque ad diem judicii, et continuo rogabant
Patrem , iit misereretnr eoriim. Et deinde dictiis angelus
portavit dictum hominem super colhim usque ad aliud coe-
lum secundum et invenit popubuii multum pulchriorem,
quam populum primi coeli , qui etiam stabat in requie, et
habebant dominum super se, qui etiam eis praedicabat.
Quem cum dictus homo bonus vellet adorare, prohibitus
fuit per angelum, dicentem: quod non erat ille pater; et
eodem modo fuit portatus tertio, quarto, quinto , sexto et
septimo coelo, et quanto plus ascendebant, tanto pulchrior
populus erat , et habebant clariorem dominum , et omnes
dictus bonus homo volebat adorare , credens , quod essent
pater, et prohibitus fuit per dictum angelum^ quousque ve-
nit ad septimum coelum, ubi erat Pater sanctus; et erat ibi
magna claritas et pulcherrimus populus et habebant omnes
Coronas, quae multo clariores erant, quam sitsol, et omnes
praedicti populi VII coelorum cantabant canticum Sion, sed
illi superiores melius inter omnes cantabant; et, ut dixit,
locus ille erat pulcherrimus, et erat ibi abundantia omnium
bonorum in tantum quod, qui erant ibi, obliviscebantur om-
nium bonorum istius saeculi. Et ibi erant angeli et omnes
boni homines , id est haeretici et mulieres; dicebat tamen
de mulieribus, quod anijnae hominum et mulierum inter se
difierentiam non habebant, sed in carnibus hominum et mu-
lierum Sathanas dominus istius mundi fecerat differentiam,
de voluntate tamen Patris sancti, cujus omnia opera manent
semper et destrui non possunt; sed opera Sathanae domini
istius mundi iiunt et destruuntur , et ideo quia carnes ho-
minum et mulierum destruuntur , sunt opera Sathanae , sed
animae sunt opera Patris sancti. Et cum fuit in dicto 7.
coelo, dictus angelus dixit dicto bono homini, quod adora-
ret illum Patrem sanctum , quia ille erat Pater sanctus po-
puli Israel, id est haereticorum; quem Patrem sanctum
dictus bonus homo adoravit; quem cum adorasset dictus
bonus homo rogavit Patrem sanctum, quod ibi de caetero maneret , et Pater sanctiis respondit ei , qiiocl non poterat
ibi remaiiere, quia iiulla caio nata de coriiiptione poterat
ibi manere, sed oportebat qnod reverteretur ad mundum et
confortaret parviilos ejus, quia, ubi erat unus parvulus ejus,
ipse esset cum eo, et ubi erant duo, sirailiter, et ubi eraut
tres, eodem modo. Et cum dictus bonus bomo diceret: Pa-
ter sancte , quomodo ego revertar ad mundum inferiorem?
dictus Pater sanctus respondit ei: non voces me — Pater,
quia non sum Pater tuus, quia dubitasti; sed oportet quod
descendas ad mundum inferiorem et tunicam, id est corpus
de immuuditia conceptum, ibi dimittas, et postea anima tua,
quando dimisit corpus , veniet huc. Et cum dictus homo
per longum tempus stetissct in coelo, non videbatur ei, quod
quasi aliquam moram ibi contraxisset propter magnam de-
lectationem , quae ibi erat. Deinde dictus angelus reduxit
dictum bonum hominem ad mundum inferiorem, qui homo
postea praedicavit illa, quae viderat, et multum fundavit et
confortavit fidem ipsorum haereticorum; non tamen omnia,
quae pertinent ad fidem eorum, dictus homo recitavit, nee
scivit, quia, ut dixit, nuUus solus fuit, qui sciret omnia se-
creta Dei, sed inter omnes homines sciebant omnia Dei se-
creta.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

Google translate of the first part

This good man, their
there was a sect, who was doubtful, whether the goods of faith he held that, etro-
he fancied the Father, to show him what, if you have a good faith and a good
the way he was holding, and that it be given to make known the glory to him.
And vpon a certain day, so long as he was praying, the angel appeared to him and said,
to him, that he had come, and that he would show him the glory of the Father of the Holy
the faith of the good and the evil way, and if he was holding; and the man said he did
end up on the neck and carried him hilum
this after the world as far as the first heaven turbulen- NES
then and brought him down there, and he saw a man called Lord of the di-
cti of the world and of heaven, and came and said to him, Festus wanted to ado-
isolated, but was prevented from doing so by the word of the angel, who said to Him,
that they do not worship him, because he was not for his father. And de-
The said the angel took him a good man on
According to the world, and carried him by his neck, according to the
as long as the heavens and the day she laid him there, and when he saw a man called
O Lord, according to the greater glory of the LORD standing in the world, which the
stand in the LORD, the first of the world, he wants us to worship him, but it was
Prevented by the angel said. And the same way of entering
rehearsal was stated by a heavenly messenger by others
angles as far as the seventh heaven, and the said man was willing to ado-
Rare the said lords of heaven and the world, who is the greater
of glory, they were, how much they had the advantage, and they were also prohibited by the
angel told them to worship. Finally carried the seventh
he said to him, and when he saw the angel of the Lord was called the heaven of heaven, which is
He was the Father is holy, and which he was worshiping. And coming
The man was called to the Father, worshiped him, and he was called the Father San-
Cursed be the man asked, coming uridium went missing. Qui re-
promise me what is called a man out of the land of trouble and when he saw ^
in the 'sense of great clarity and mnlti heaven and angels
pnlchra gardens and birds were singing, and there was vanic gaii-
joy without sorrow; where there was no thirst or hunger, nor the tiara
nor the heat, but the temperature of the voice, he said to the Father, Holy Spirit, which
it would have pleased him, that he would remain with him in the future. And Father
holy, he replied that he could not remain there for the next,
^ but he could not stay there because of the corruption of the flesh born
it was necessary, that he was coming down to the land of trouble and perform the
in dedicating that faith, which he already knew, that they knew that it was the faith of
thereof. And the said man prayed unto the Father, which by means of a
a pause to stand with him, which was also granted to him; After a pause
said, the angels said to the man said, that he would come up on the
colJum of it, for it was, because they would go down; and the said
Abram said to the man, that he still had not stopped with the Father from the
first to the third. And the said, the angel said to him, that the
in fact, he had stood by the 32 years, and in this way to find out, if there should be
in earth. He said a man riding on the neck of the an-
ders and down through all the said finally came to the world
^ what he had seen and after that while he preached. And so,
as he said, it was confirmed for their belief and sect.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

Google translate of the second part

He said that was found in the prophecy of Isaiah the prophet,
there was a man that a certain good, that is a heretic, who, because of
the words which he had heard from the other of a good man, which is not one
himself at variance, and also on account of the things which he had read Inlibris,
he began to doubt as to the faith of the good of men, that is, the heresy
not keep silent, and then he put himself to read in the books, so that they can
but to know whether a good or bad faith of the hold, and read it:
three days and two nights, and it was not exhausted, or
slept; And when he had thus read, he came to him a messenger of the Father,
Ghost and said, why did he doubt the good faith of the man
Is it? And he said to him, that to the end at all, which invenie-
he gathered in the books, and for this reason too, that they were good men among the
faithfully variance. And then the angel said to the said
the good man, that is a heretic: 'Do not doubt, but go up
above my neck. And was called up on the good person
The neck of the angel and the angel said, came up with the saying good
the first heaven and found there a man, even to the people,
they had over them a lot of joy, and the owner, who present them,
fury. Now when she saw a man is called a good man, he wanted to ado-
Rare, and he was called the angel said to him: And what do you propose to do? and
was a good man but he replied that he wanted to worship the Father;
aiigelus whose expression that said that he was under their father, but they
Of the Spirit were those who had not liabebant good, nor evil, Forthwith,
were present at the day of judgment, they will get, and immediately, they asked them
Father, stepped misereretnr eoriim. Then at the Angel
man carried it over to the other celestial colhe
and found their second popubuii much fairer,
instead of a war of the first heaven, who also stood on the rest, and
they had a ruler over them, which is also to them, he preached.
And when I was a good person would adore Prevented
was by the angel, saying, that it is not was not the father; and
was carried on in the same way was the third, the fourth, fifth, sixth, and
the seventh heaven, and the more I went up together, so much the more beautiful,
the people was, and they had more powerful than any master, and all the
called good man wanted to worship, believing that they were
Father and have been kept so long as it was by the word of the angel of the truth ^
NES to the seventh heaven, where he had been the Father is holy; And was there
great clarity and beautiful people, and they had all
Crowns, which were much more distinguished than sitsol, and all the
they sang the song of Zion, the people of the aforesaid 7 of the heavens, but
among all the better the higher they sang one to another; and, as he said,
He was the most beautiful place, and he was there an abundance of all
so much so that the good things to those who were there, they forgot all
ing the goods of this world. And there were angels and all
the best of men, that is, heretics and women; He nevertheless
of women, of men and women to each other that anijnae
varieties, they did not have, but in the flesh of man, and mu-
lierum Satan, the lord of this world had made a difference,
however, with the consent of the Holy Father, all things of which they remain the works of
they can not always be dismantled; but the work of Satan 'master
edifices, and of that of the world are destroyed, and it was just because the flesh of man,
men and women are being destroyed, are the works of Satan, but
The works of the Holy Father. And when He was in the said 7.
heaven, he said the said the good man said, the angels, that they adore
ret him the Father is holy, because the Father is holy, He was a po-
of the people of Israel, that is, of the heretics; which the Holy Father
called good man bowed; said he had adored
A good man prayed unto the Father Holy Spirit, which would remain there for the rest, and the Father Sanctiis she answered her, he could not qiiocl
remaiiere there, because the child of Caio iiulla coriiiptione could
there to stay, but it was necessary, that it should return to the world and
strengthen parviilos to him, because, where he had been one of her little ones,
he might be with him, and where there were two, likewise, and where eraut
three, the same way. And when it was good, man said: pa-
thrice-holy God, as I will, I will return to the world below?
was called the Holy Father said to him, not me, the voices - the Father,
that I am not the Father lives, I doubt; but must
I went down into the lower world, and also his coat, that is, the body
the concept of the immuuditia is, there is, forgive me, and afterward thy soul,
when he let down his body, he will come back here. And when the man said
stetissct in the sky for a long time, it did not seem to him that he
Contracted for a while there were great de-
benches, which there was. Then he was called back to Angel
it was not good for man to the world, the nether, and this man,
afterwards, he proclaimed that, what he had seen, and a lot of, and laid the foundation of
strengthened the faith of the heretics; but not all,
which pertain to the faith of them, he was called a man recited to his friends, nor
He knew, because, as he said, no one was the only one who knew the whole se-
chalk of God, but all things are of God: for they knew all men between the se-
chalk.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

It may be relevant that Moneta of Cremona https://archive.org/stream/venerabilisp ... e_djvu.txt claims that the Cathars

dicunt Prophetas
bonos fuisse; aliquando autem omnes damnabant
praeter Isaiam , cujus dicunt esse quemdam libellum,
in quo habetur , quod spiritus Isaia; raptus a corpore usque ad septimum caelum ductus est , in quo vidit , et audivit quadam arcana

translation

say the prophets are good men; But sometimes all are condemned
except Isaiah, to whom they attribute a certain book,
in which we have, that the spirit of Isaiah; was caught up as far from the body, led up to the seventh heaven, in which he has seen and heard a kind of secrets:

If Moneta is correct that the Cathars, despite their suspicion of the Old Testament, valued the prophet Isaiah because of his supposed authorship of the Ascension; then it becomes more likely that the references in the Docetic nativity account to fulfillment of what Isaiah had prophesied, mean prophesied in the Ascension.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

This is interesting.
From the Acts of Peter

But Peter said: Anathema upon thy words against (or in) Christ! Presumest thou to speak thus, whereas the prophet saith of him: Who shall declare his generation? And another prophet saith: And we saw him and he had no beauty nor comeliness. And: In the last times shall a child be born of the Holy Ghost: his mother knoweth not a man, neither doth any man say that he is his father. And again he saith: She hath brought forth and not brought forth.[From the apocryphal Ezekiel (lost)] And again: Is it a small thing for you to weary men (lit. Is it a small thing that ye make a contest for men)? Behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb. And another prophet saith, honouring the Father: Neither did we hear her voice, neither did a midwife come in.[From the Ascension of Isaiah, xi. 14] Another prophet saith: Born not of the womb of a woman, but from a heavenly place came he down. And: A stone was cut out without hands, and smote all the kingdoms. And: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; and he calleth him a stone elect, precious. And again a prophet saith concerning him: And behold, I saw one like the Son of man coming upon a cloud. And what more? O ye men of Rome, if ye knew the Scriptures of the prophets, I would expound all unto you: by which Scriptures it was necessary that this should be spoken in a mystery, and that the kingdom of God should be perfected. But these things shall be opened unto you hereafter. Now turn I unto thee, Simon: do thou some one thing of those wherewith thou didst before deceive them, and I will bring it to nought through my Lord Jesus Christ. And Simon plucked up his boldness and said: If the prefect allow it (prepare yourselves and delay not for my sake).

This seems to be using the Ascension of Isaiah (or a similar work) to make claims similar to those reported of the Cathar (Belibaste) by the Inquisitor.

Andrew Criddle

[Peter Kirby]

This is interesting.
From the Acts of Peter

But Peter said: Anathema upon thy words against (or in) Christ! Presumest thou to speak thus, whereas the prophet saith of him: Who shall declare his generation? And another prophet saith: And we saw him and he had no beauty nor comeliness. And: In the last times shall a child be born of the Holy Ghost: his mother knoweth not a man, neither doth any man say that he is his father. And again he saith: She hath brought forth and not brought forth.[From the apocryphal Ezekiel (lost)] And again: Is it a small thing for you to weary men (lit. Is it a small thing that ye make a contest for men)? Behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb. And another prophet saith, honouring the Father: Neither did we hear her voice, neither did a midwife come in.[From the Ascension of Isaiah, xi. 14] Another prophet saith: Born not of the womb of a woman, but from a heavenly place came he down. And: A stone was cut out without hands, and smote all the kingdoms. And: The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; and he calleth him a stone elect, precious. And again a prophet saith concerning him: And behold, I saw one like the Son of man coming upon a cloud. And what more? O ye men of Rome, if ye knew the Scriptures of the prophets, I would expound all unto you: by which Scriptures it was necessary that this should be spoken in a mystery, and that the kingdom of God should be perfected. But these things shall be opened unto you hereafter. Now turn I unto thee, Simon: do thou some one thing of those wherewith thou didst before deceive them, and I will bring it to nought through my Lord Jesus Christ. And Simon plucked up his boldness and said: If the prefect allow it (prepare yourselves and delay not for my sake).

This seems to be using the Ascension of Isaiah (or a similar work) to make claims similar to those reported of the Cathar (Belibaste) by the Inquisitor.

Andrew Criddle

Actually, that's a pretty amazing connection, Andrew.

I cited this in the "docetist" thread, but I left the identification of the "prophet" here unknown. But it seems like it could be the "Ascension of Isaiah" in both cases bolded. And both of these are part of chapter 11, so that would bring this part of chapter 11 back as far as the second/third century, before the Acts of Peter.

Apparently, if we are dealing with an interpolation, it is a very old one; but if we are dealing with deletion, it could have been done much later.

(Not that very old interpolations are unknown. For example, some of the earliest citations from Mark [Irenaeus, if I remember right] refer to the longer ending after Mark 16:8, and some of the earliest citations from Luke refer to the interpolations in Luke regarding the agony in the garden [Justin Martyr], etc. There's also just the possibility that a 'similar work' was circulating then, with the infancy, and found its way into the Ascension of Isaiah.)

Thanks for walking me through this evidence.

[andrewcriddle]

Today I made a fuller extract of the inquisitor in order to see the context.

Circa vesperas cum reversi fuissent de vineis et bibissent,
dictus haereticus juxta ignem cum eis incepit praedicare
dicens: Pater sanctus dixit: non faciatis alteri, quod
tibi non vis fieri. Invenitur, quod, quando spiritus, quos
creaverat Pater sanctus, decepti ab inimico ejus modo supradicto
in alio sermone de coelo exierant, et inimicus Dei
induerat eos tunicis, id est corporibus, ut obliviscerentur de
gloria Dei, in qua aliquando fuerant, Pater sanctus videns
se depauperatum de spiritibus et quasi solitarium, et quod
cathedrae, in quibus dicti spiritus sedere consueverant,
vacabant, doluit et turbatus fuit de perditione suorum
spirituum et cogitavit intra se, qualiter spiritus, qui decepti
de coelo ceciderant et nono recordabantur de gloria coelesti,
quam habuerant, propter quod non affectabant illuc reverti,
possent iterum ad coelum reverti ad sedes suas.
Et tunc incepit scribere unum librum, quem composuit in
quadringentis annis, in quo libro scripta erant plene dolores,
angustiae, afflictiones, papertates, infirmatates, contumeliae,
injuriae, invidiae, odia, rancores et generaliter omnes
poenalitates, quae contingere hominibus possunt in hac vita.
Et continebatur ibi, quod ille, qui vellet sustinere omnes
praedictas poenalitates et docere, quod dictas poenalitates
sustineret, esset filius Patris sancti. Et cum incepit librum
dictus Pater sanctus, Isaias propheta incepit prophetizare,
quod una branca vel ramus debebat venire, qui redimeret
spiritus humanos. Et cum Pater sanctus dictum librum
composuisset, posuit eum in medio spirituum coelestium,
qui remanserant in coelo cum eo, et dixit: ille, qui
perfecerit illa, quae scripta sunt in isto libro, filius meus erit.
Et multi de spiritibus coelestibus volentes esse Patris sancti
filii et prae aliis esse honorati accesserunt ad dictum librum
et aperuerunt ipsum et legentes poenalitates contentas in
libro, quas opertebat pati eum qui vellet venire inter homines
et honorare humanum genus, postquam modicum in
dicto libro legerunt, cadentes spasmati deficiebant, et nullus
volebat dimittere gloriam, quam habebat, et supponere se
poenalitatibus hujus vitae, ut Dei filius esset. Quod videns
Pater sanctus dixit: Et non est aliquis de vobis, qui velit
esse filius mens? et tune unus de spiritibus astantibus, qui
vocabatur Johannes, surrexit et dixit, quod ipse volebat
esse filius Patris et complere omnia, quae scripta erant in
libro praedicto; et accedens ad dictum librum aperuit ipsum,
legit in eu quator vel quinque folia et spasmatus cecidit
juxta librum et stetit sic per tres dies et noctes; et deinde
expergefactus ploravit multum et, quia promiserat se completurum
illa, quae in dicto libro continabautur, et mentiri
non debebat, dixit Patri, quod ipse volebat esse ejus filius
et complere illa omnia, quae in dicto libro continebantur,
quantumcunque gravia essent illa; et descendit de coelo et
apparuit ut puer natus de novo in Bethlehem. Et videtur
ipsi loquenti, quod dictus haereticus dixit, qnod beata Ma-
ria fuit grossa, ac si esset praegnans. Et postea dictus puer
apparuit juxta eam, et existimavit, quod grossities ejus dis-
soluta fuit, quod dictum filium peperisset; cum tarnen eum
non gestasset in ventre, nee eum peperisset. Et postquam
sie dictus puer apparuit in Bethlehem, auditum fuit et nar-
ratum per multos, quod propheta, quem praedixerat Isaias
esse venturum, venerat. Quod audientes tres Reges venerunt
singuli de loco suo et convenerunt simul, ut ad dictum
puerum venirent et eum adorarent et munera, quae paraverant,
offerent; quorum unus portabat aurum, alter thus, tertius
myrrham; et cum fuerunt simul in via, ordinaverunt,
quod antiquior inter eos primus offeret, et junior inter eos
multum affectabat, primus offerre munus suum; propter hoc
dixit antiquiori, quod, si daret ei illum honorem, quod primus
offeret, ipse daret ei juventutem suam pro ejus senectute.
Et tunc dixerunt, quod, si haec propheta apparens
faceret, sclicet quod junior annis esset antiquus, antiquus
esset junior annis, cognoscerent, quod ipse erat ille propheta,
quem praedixit Isaias. Quod cum factuum fuisset,
iverunt, et stella duxit eos usque ad Bethlehem, et adoraverunt
dictum prophetam. Et dictum fuit eis, quod Herodes
volebat eos interficere, et quod non reverterentur per
terram ejus, sed per aliam viam, quia Herodes perpendens
occidit multos filios. Qui Dei Filius postea fuit baptizatus
per Johannem; deinde diabolus portavit eum regna mundi,
et dixit ei, quod omnia regna mundi sua erant, et quod omnia ei
daret, si in eum credere vellet. Cui respondens Dei Filius dixit:
Vade Sathanas, scriptum est in libro Patris mei, quod Dei
Filium non decipies. Deinde sustinuit multas poenalitates
hujus mundi et pradicavit et tandem, cum tempus advenit,
quod reverteretur ad Patrem, dixit discipulis suis: Ego veni
in mundum, et mundus me non cognovit; ego non sum de
mundo, nec mundus de me: et qui est meus, non est de
mundo, et qui est de mundo, non est meus; quia mundus
iste est maligni et inimici Dei, rectoris istius mundi,
et rector mundi nihil in me habet. Tunct etiam dixit apostolis
suis: amici mei et pusilli! tres carnes sunt, et vos non commedatis,
nisi de una, scilicet de carne aquae, quae nascitur
sine peccato et corruptione. Dixit etiam eis, quod tempus
erat, quod reverteretur ad suum Patrem, et dixit eis, quod
ipsi praedicarent verba sua, quae scripserat Pater propter
mundum, et quod propter nullam poenam vel tribulationem
mundi dimitterent ejus fidem, dicens, quod novem sunt
poenae, de quibus ipse volebat sustinere octo, et nonam
sustinerent ipsi, et in nona, quam sustinerent ipsi, daret eis
tantum de adjutorio, quod faciliter dictam poenam possent
tolerare. Deiude quando debuit capi, dixit eis, quod pro nulla
re, quae contingeret sibi vel eis, eum negarent, vel ejus
fidem dimitterent. Et Petrus respondet ei: quod, etiamsi
debert mori, non negaret ipsum, nec dimitteret.

Unedited Google Translate:

When we come back in the evening they would have been out of the vineyards and drunk, he was called a heretic, according to the fire with them, began to preach, saying, The Holy Father said: I do not do any of the other, that you do not want to be done. Now it is found that, when the spirits which had created the Father is holy, in another word, the above mentioned have been deceived by the enemy from the sky had gone out of his way, and the enemy of God, put on the coats of the them, that is, the bodies, to forget about the glory of God, in which they had been at any time, seeing the Holy Father and, as it were about the spirits themselves depauperatum solitary, and that the chair, in which the said spirits were wont to sit, spent their time, it was, he was troubled, and his soul was grieved for the loss of their
of spirits, and they reasoned among themselves, after what manner of spirit, of those who are deceived from heaven fallen to the ground, and in the ninth they were reminded of the glory of the celestial, which they had possessed, for the sake of that which is not there, do strive to return, they were able to return to their homes once again to the sky. And then he began to write a book, which he wrote in the four hundred years, in which were written the book full of grief, affliction, afflictions, papertate, infirmity, insults, injuries, envy, hatred, ill will and, generally speaking, all the penalties, which can happen to men in this life, . And it was contained there, that he would be willing to endure the penalties and to teach all of the foregoing, that the said penalties would withstand it, it would be the son of the Father of the Holy. And when they began to be called the book of the Holy Father, he began to prophetizare Isaiah the prophet, or a branch of it should have come to that one Person to person, none to redeem us of the human spirit. And as he was called by the Holy Father composed the book, he put him in the midst of the spirits of the heavenly bodies, who were left after them in heaven with him, and he said: the one who has accomplished those things which are written in this book, it will be my son. They want to be the Father of the spirits of the heavenly and holy Son And there were many more than others, have won for him, and when you read the book, and it was said to be honorable; they went to the penalties contained in the book, as if he wanted to come among men, and to honor him who should suffer, It behooveth the human race, after a little while they read the book in the said, you must fall down spasmati failing, and no one was willing to let go of the glory which he had with him, and to suppose him the penalties of this life, as it would be the son of God. That said, when he saw the Father is holy: And it is not one of you who wishes to be the son of the mind? and then, one of the spirits of those who stood by, who was called John, he got up and he said that he wanted to be the Son of the Father, and to complete all the things which were written in the book of the aforesaid; and he came to the words of the Book, opened it, and read in the book of the football and fell down by four or five leaves and spasm, and stood thus for three days and nights; and then I woke up, and she hath wept much, because he had promised himself to completion the things mentioned in the said book continabautur, and He should not have to lie, he said to the Father, his Son, and that he was willing to complete it to be all those things, which were contained in the said book, no matter how grievous would it be to them; he came down from heaven, and has appeared as a child is born of a new, and to Beth-lehem. And it seems, that was speaking to him, that he was called a heretic, he said, that they are the blessed Mary was the 'gross', as if it were a woman with child. And later said the boy appeared beside her, and he thought that the grossness of it was melted, it was said that she had a son; with the blessed manner, however, in the belly of him shall not be, nor should she. And so, after he called the boy appeared to him in Bethlehem, and the hearing and was told by many, that the prophet, whom Isaiah predicted was to come, he had come. When they heard of the three kings, they came every one from his own place, and they came together, it was said the child, in order to worship and to come, and to him the gifts which they had prepared, they shall offer; one of whom was wearing the gold, and the other frankincense, and myrrh for the third; when they were in the way and at the same time, they arranged, which is the oldest one of them is the first offering, and a lot of sought to become the younger among them, was the first to offer a gift to shine; Because of this, he said to the senior, that, if he gave him this honor unto himself, that the first offering, he would give his life for him in his youth to old age. And then they said, that, if this is the prophet, appearing to do so, it would be sclicet and junior years old, he was younger than the Ancient of years, they would know, that it was he, the prophet, which he cried by Isaiah. And when this had been done, they departed; and he led them all the way to the star of Bethlehem, said the prophet, and have worshiped it. And it was said to them, that Herod wanted to kill them, and that they were not to turn by means of his land, but by a different way, because it is precisely in view of Herod slew many children. Who, although he was the Son of God was baptized by John; and then the devil carried him by the kingdoms of the world, and said to him, that all the kingdoms of the world were her own, and that he should give all things to him, if he wanted to believe in him. No, 'said the Son of God, and said, Go not Satan, it is written in the book of my Father, that the Son of God will not be forgotten. After that he endured many of this world and of the penalties of the preached and at length, when the time came that he should return to the Father, said to his disciples: I am come into the world, and the world hath not known me; I am not of the world, nor the world of me: and he that is my God, not of this world, and who is out of the world, is not mine; because the world is the enemy of God, and this is the malign, the ruler of this world, and Ruler of the world, there is nothing in me. He is also said to the Apostles, saying: My friends and my little! three of the flesh, they will also not commedatis, Except it be for, namely, from the flesh of the water, which is born out of sin and corruption. He also said to them, that the time was that I had returned to His Father, and said unto them, that they should preach the words of his own, he had written, Father, for the sake of the world, and that for the sake of his faith with them no pain or dismiss the persecution of the world, saying that there are nine of the punishment, of the eight of them myself, and would have to bear it, and the ninth to sustain themselves, and in the ninth, which all bear the law to him, he would give them as much of the aid, which is easily able to cope with the said penalty. When it ought to have been taken afterwards, and said unto them, as he considered that nothing of this, for himself or for the things that happen to them, they denied him, or his faith in their conquest. And Peter answereth him, that, even if it is about to die, he did not deny it, neither would he let the.

The passage about the Magi is odd From the Seventeen Miracles at Christ's Birth

When, then, they arrived at the door of the house wherein Christ was, Melchior the senior came into the house, and the other two tarried outside of the door in order that their senior might terminate prostrating himself and offering all his gifts. For this was always a custom with them: obeisance to their elders."' Then Gaspar the junior spoke thus: "Oh Almighty God," he said, "mar- velous today is the grace for that one who is older than we are, for it is he who first shall see the Savior." When, then, Christ heard that, he converted the figure of the junior into that of the senior, so that it is he who first saw Christ and offered to Him before everyone else his gifts; and that was among the first miracles of Christ.

This seems clearly parallel to

et cum fuerunt simul in via, ordinaverunt,
quod antiquior inter eos primus offeret, et junior inter eos
multum affectabat, primus offerre munus suum; propter hoc
dixit antiquiori, quod, si daret ei illum honorem, quod primus
offeret, ipse daret ei juventutem suam pro ejus senectute.
Et tunc dixerunt, quod, si haec propheta apparens
faceret, sclicet quod junior annis esset antiquus, antiquus
esset junior annis, cognoscerent, quod ipse erat ille propheta,
quem praedixit Isaias.

when they were in the way and at the same time, they ordered,
which is the oldest one of them is the first offering, and a younger among them,
much affected, first offers his gift; because
He said to the senior, that, if he gave him this honor unto himself, that the first
were offering, he would give his life for him in his youth to old age.
And then they said, that, if this is an appearance of a prophet
do sclicet and junior years he was old, old
he was younger years, they would know, that it was he, the prophet,
whom Isaiah predicted.

There is the sane idea of the younger becoming the elder. There must be a link but the nature of the relationship is unclear.

Andrew Criddle

[andrewcriddle]

The passage about the Magi is odd From the Seventeen Miracles at Christ's Birth

When, then, they arrived at the door of the house wherein Christ was, Melchior the senior came into the house, and the other two tarried outside of the door in order that their senior might terminate prostrating himself and offering all his gifts. For this was always a custom with them: obeisance to their elders."' Then Gaspar the junior spoke thus: "Oh Almighty God," he said, "mar- velous today is the grace for that one who is older than we are, for it is he who first shall see the Savior." When, then, Christ heard that, he converted the figure of the junior into that of the senior, so that it is he who first saw Christ and offered to Him before everyone else his gifts; and that was among the first miracles of Christ.

This seems clearly parallel to

et cum fuerunt simul in via, ordinaverunt,
quod antiquior inter eos primus offeret, et junior inter eos
multum affectabat, primus offerre munus suum; propter hoc
dixit antiquiori, quod, si daret ei illum honorem, quod primus
offeret, ipse daret ei juventutem suam pro ejus senectute.
Et tunc dixerunt, quod, si haec propheta apparens
faceret, sclicet quod junior annis esset antiquus, antiquus
esset junior annis, cognoscerent, quod ipse erat ille propheta,
quem praedixit Isaias.

when they were in the way and at the same time, they ordered,
which is the oldest one of them is the first offering, and a younger among them,
much affected, first offers his gift; because
He said to the senior, that, if he gave him this honor unto himself, that the first
were offering, he would give his life for him in his youth to old age.
And then they said, that, if this is an appearance of a prophet
do sclicet and junior years he was old, old
he was younger years, they would know, that it was he, the prophet,
whom Isaiah predicted.

There is the sane idea of the younger becoming the elder. There must be a link but the nature of the relationship is unclear.

Andrew Criddle

Found it The Journey of the Magi

Apparently the idea of the magi exchanging ages becomes widespread in late Medieval retellings of the story. Although this is an un sually early example of the idea.

This may support the idea that the Cathar sermon is partly based on popular legends of a non-gnostic non-docetic nature and partly on Cathar apocrypha such as the Ascension of Isaiah.

Andrew Criddle

Edited to Add

The Secret Supper also seems likely to be a source for the sermon.

[Peter Kirby]

Thanks, Andrew. Certainly, because it is a record of oral teaching, there is no strong reason to assume that the speaker strictly followed one text.

Although we still have something of text-critical problem with the 'pocket gospel' that is missing from some manuscripts. An interpolation or removal occurred at some point. It is a point of debate, I think, which occurred. What I believe this thread has proven is that the manuscript support for interpolation is not nearly as good as assumed (the manuscript evidence, then, doesn't prove that interpolation is the explanation). However, that doesn't mean that there isn't still manuscript support for the absence of this passage at this point in this text. We have those manuscripts. Explaining why the discrepancy exists in our manuscripts will require some critical judgment (and some level of uncertainty). Deletion or insertion? How do we tell?

We have a possible explanation for deletion, as suggested, in the middle ages. But we also have a possible explanation for insertion, in the 1st/2nd century. According to some, the people who produced this document didn't believe the things in this portion of the text, but other people who used this document did. If the document was important to them, and the new beliefs were important to them, that could provide a reason to update the text to reflect the new beliefs. This provides a possible explanation for insertion, during the time period that an insertion would have to have taken place. Either hypothesis seems like it would be able to explain the same manuscript evidence (some mss. have the text, some mss. don't).

So I guess we are back to the question of the 'internal evidence' and its interpretation, which was my point before I started the whole (very interesting, IMO!) tangent. I appreciate your patience in showing me some of these indications in this inquisitor's text and the Acts of Peter. I still wonder, though, whether the scholars who regard it as an interpolation (e.g., in the New Testament Apocrypha intro by C. Detlef G. Müller) have it right.

[andrewcriddle]

Thanks, Andrew. Certainly, because it is a record of oral teaching, there is no strong reason to assume that the speaker strictly followed one text.

Although we still have something of text-critical problem with the 'pocket gospel' that is missing from some manuscripts. An interpolation or removal occurred at some point. It is a point of debate, I think, which occurred. What I believe this thread has proven is that the manuscript support for interpolation is not nearly as good as assumed (the manuscript evidence, then, doesn't prove that interpolation is the explanation). However, that doesn't mean that there isn't still manuscript support for the absence of this passage at this point in this text. We have those manuscripts. Explaining why the discrepancy exists in our manuscripts will require some critical judgment (and some level of uncertainty). Deletion or insertion? How do we tell?

We have a possible explanation for deletion, as suggested, in the middle ages. But we also have a possible explanation for insertion, in the 1st/2nd century. According to some, the people who produced this document didn't believe the things in this portion of the text, but other people who used this document did. If the document was important to them, and the new beliefs were important to them, that could provide a reason to update the text to reflect the new beliefs. This provides a possible explanation for insertion, during the time period that an insertion would have to have taken place. Either hypothesis seems like it would be able to explain the same manuscript evidence (some mss. have the text, some mss. don't).

So I guess we are back to the question of the 'internal evidence' and its interpretation, which was my point before I started the whole (very interesting, IMO!) tangent. I appreciate your patience in showing me some of these indications in this inquisitor's text and the Acts of Peter. I still wonder, though, whether the scholars who regard it as an interpolation (e.g., in the New Testament Apocrypha intro by C. Detlef G. Müller) have it right.

Hi Peter

On the matter of internal evidence.

AoI 9 in the Ethiopic

12. And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descent in the form in which you will see Him descent [will descent, I say] into the world in the last days the Lord, who will be called Christ.

13. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.

14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.

15. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is.

is rather different in the Latin/Slavonic

And he said to me, Now they receive them not, until the Son first brings here those thrones and crowns, when He shall be in your likeness.' And the prince of that world will stretch forth his hand upon the Son of God and will kill Him and hang Him on a tree, and he will kill Him not knowing who He is.

The Ethiopic is much clearer that Christ will take on the appearance of human flesh when he descends into the world.

It is not obvious from the passage itself which is closer to the original.

However chapter 3

13. For Beliar was in great wrath against Isaiah by reason of the vision, and because of the exposure wherewith he had exposed Sammael, and because through him the going forth of the Beloved from the seventh heaven had been made known, and His transformation and His descent and the likeness into which He should be transformed (that is) the likeness of man, and the persecution wherewith he should be persecuted, and the torturers wherewith the children of Israel should torture Him, and the coming of His twelve disciples, and the teaching, and that He should before the sabbath be crucified upon the tree, and should be crucified together with wicked men, and that He should be buried in the sepulchre,

does seem to have been probably influenced by chapter 9.

If so this would imply that the version of chapter 9 known to the composer of the final form of chapter 3 contained a reference to Christ taking the likeness of a man when he descends into the world. I'E. the earliest version of chapter 9 agreed with the Ethiopic rather than the Latin'Slavonic.

Andrew Criddle