Jesus' Crucifixion is Largely Based on Psalm 22

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mlinssen
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Re: Jesus' Crucifixion is Largely Based on Psalm 22

Post by mlinssen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:43 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:38 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:18 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:40 pm I made a list in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3149&p=115315#p115315

Seems like I missed v. 15 of John, strange
Here is the list of σταυρ root words in the entire NT; I cannot find the highlighted ones on your list:

Matthew 10.38; 16.24; 20.19; 23.34; 26.2; 27.22, 23, 26, 31, 32, 35, 38, 40, 42, 44; 28.5.
Mark 8.34; 15.13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 24, 25, 27, 30, 32 (×2); 16.6.
Luke 9.23; 14.27; 23.21 (×2), 23, 26, 33; 24.7, 20.
John 19.6 (×3), 10, 15 (×2), 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 25, 31, 32, 41.
Acts 2.36; 4.10.
Romans 6.6; 1 Corinthians 1.13, 17, 18, 23; 2.2, 8; 2 Corinthians 13.4; Galatians 2.20; 3.1; 5.11, 24; 6.12, 14 (×2); Philippians 2.8; 3.18.
Ephesians 2.16; Colossians 1.20; 2.14; Hebrews 6.6; 12.2.
Revelation 11.8.

ETA: Fixed a copy/paste error.
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/20-19.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/26-2.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/28-5.htm

Etc...
Yes, they all have the verb σταυρόω. It appears that your list is a search for the string σταυρω, rather than for the root σταυρ, which is why you missed these instances of the verb σταυρόω.
Not really, I just looked for the word cross [EDIT: and 'cruci'] and then etc.
But how come you missed these Matthew verses?
Last edited by mlinssen on Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus' Crucifixion is Largely Based on Psalm 22

Post by Ben C. Smith »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:48 pmNot really, I just looked for the word cross and then etc.
But how come you missed these Matthew verses?
I am not sure what you are asking. Which Matthew verses did I miss?
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Re: Jesus' Crucifixion is Largely Based on Psalm 22

Post by mlinssen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:49 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:48 pmNot really, I just looked for the word cross and then etc.
But how come you missed these Matthew verses?
I am not sure what you are asking. Which Matthew verses did I miss?
Never mind, I just woke up :|

Can't believe I missed all that indeed, I'll check the source
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Re: Crucifixion and 'the Cross' in Paul

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:40 pm I made a list in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3149&p=115315#p115315
Seems like I missed v. 15 of John, strange
Hah, missing one verse isn't as bad as me missing your lists.

I'm intrigued with how the Pauline references are often simply to assert (i) a Christ crucified, refer to Paul being crucified, or refer to Christ being exhibited as crucified, or 'those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified 'the flesh'; or (ii) to qualified references to the cross: the 'offense of the cross', the 'message' of the cross, the 'power' of the cross, the 'blood of the cross', the 'enemies of the cross'.

Some Pauline crucified references -

Gal 2:19, I have been crucified with Christ
Gal 3:1, It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly exhibited as crucified!
Gal 5:24 , those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires
1 Cor 1:13, Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified [estaurōthē] for you?
1 Cor 1:23, we preach Christ crucified

Romans 6:6 ... our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be annulled


Some Pauline cross references -

Gal 5:11, the offense of the cross has been removed

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the stauros of Christ be emptied of its power. 18 For the message of the staurou is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

Col 1:20, through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Phil 3:17-18, many live as enemies of the staurou of Christ

Galatians 6:12 As many as desire to have a fair appearance in the flesh, these compel you to be circumcised, only that they might not be persecuted for the staurō of Christ


A Pauline verse that includes reference to both crucified and the cross -

Galatians 6:14 But for me, may it be never to boast, except in the staurō of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world.
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Re: Jesus' Crucifixion is Largely Based on Psalm 22

Post by mlinssen »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:43 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:38 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:18 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:40 pm I made a list in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3149&p=115315#p115315

Seems like I missed v. 15 of John, strange
Here is the list of σταυρ root words in the entire NT; I cannot find the highlighted ones on your list:

Matthew 10.38; 16.24; 20.19; 23.34; 26.2; 27.22, 23, 26, 31, 32, 35, 38, 40, 42, 44; 28.5.
Mark 8.34; 15.13, 14, 15, 20, 21, 24, 25, 27, 30, 32 (×2); 16.6.
Luke 9.23; 14.27; 23.21 (×2), 23, 26, 33; 24.7, 20.
John 19.6 (×3), 10, 15 (×2), 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 23, 25, 31, 32, 41.
Acts 2.36; 4.10.
Romans 6.6; 1 Corinthians 1.13, 17, 18, 23; 2.2, 8; 2 Corinthians 13.4; Galatians 2.20; 3.1; 5.11, 24; 6.12, 14 (×2); Philippians 2.8; 3.18.
Ephesians 2.16; Colossians 1.20; 2.14; Hebrews 6.6; 12.2.
Revelation 11.8.

ETA: Fixed a copy/paste error.
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/20-19.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/26-2.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/28-5.htm

Etc...
Yes, they all have the verb σταυρόω. It appears that your list is a search for the string σταυρω, rather than for the root σταυρ, which is why you missed these instances of the verb σταυρόω.
Well,

a great many thanks Ben. Found the bastard, and it is a very odd combination of Linux shell with 'cross,' not turning up in a search unless I switch on the "non-binary" parameter.
Now... I have over 25 years of experience in IT and with text / system analysis, but never come across this. Then again this is my first Linux on PC (fat laggard here)

Anyway - learned something new, and you saved me from a lot of embarassment elsewhere

Thank you very much!
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Re: Crucifixion and 'the Cross' in Paul

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:35 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:43 pm
Well, just threw you both in here. Here's the entire list, complete, in full (Berean Literal): beware! I left Acts 2.23 in there, the only occurrence of the word cross/cruci where the Greek says different - huge disappointment there from BL but a fun find. I marked it bold and italic and added text at the front - can't be too careful

BOOK OF Matthew
Chapter 10 The Twelve Apostles
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Chapter 16 The Demand for a Sign
24 Then Jesus said His to disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Chapter 20 The Parable of the Workers
19 And they will betray Him to the Gentiles to mock and to flog and to crucify; and the third day He will rise again.” A Mother's Request
Chapter 23 Woes to Scribes and Pharisees
34 Because of this, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes. Some of them you will kill and will crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and will persecute from town to town; 35 so that upon you shall come all the righteous blood being poured out upon the earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Chapter 26 The Plot to Kill Jesus
2 “You know that after two days the Passover takes place, and the Son of Man is delivered over to be crucified.”
Chapter 27 Jesus Delivered to Pilate
22 Pilate says to them, “What then should I do with Jesus, who is called Christ?” They all say, “Let Him be crucified.”
23 And he said, “For what evil did He commit?” And they kept crying out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified.” Pilate Washes his Hands
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and having flogged Jesus, He delivered Him up that He might be crucified. The Soldiers Mock Jesus
31 And when they had mocked Him, they took off Him the robe, and they put His garments on Him and led away Him to crucify Him. The Crucifixion
32 And going forth, they found a man of Cyrene, named Simon. They compelled him that he might carry His cross.
35 And having crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots.d
38 At the same time two robbers are crucified with Him, one at the right hand, and one at the left.
40 and saying, “The One destroying the temple and building it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, also descend from the cross!”
42 “He saved others. He is not able to save Himself. He is King of Israel! Let Him descend now from the cross, and we will believe in Him.
44 And likewise even the robbers, those having been crucified with Him, were upbraiding Him. The Death of Jesus
Chapter 28 The Resurrection
5 And the angel answering said to the women, “Fear not; for I know that you seek Jesus, the One having been crucified.

BOOK OF Mark
Chapter 8 The Feeding of the Four Thousand
34 And having summoned the crowd with His disciples, He said to them, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and let him take up his cross, and let him follow Me.
Chapter 15 Jesus Delivered to Pilate
13 And they cried out again, “Crucify Him!”
14 And Pilate was saying to them, “Why? What evil did He commit?” But they shouted much more, “Crucify Him!”
15 And Pilate, desiring to do that which was satisfactory to the crowd, released Barabbas to them. And having flogged Him, he delivered Jesus that He might be crucified. The Soldiers Mock Jesus
20 And when they had mocked Him, they took off Him the purple and put on Him His own garments. And they are leading Him out, that they might crucify Him. The Crucifixion
21 And they compel one passing by, Simon of Cyrene, the father of Alexander and Rufus, coming from the country, that he might carry His cross.
24 And having crucified Him, they also divided His garments, casting lots for them, who should take what.
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.
27 And with Him they crucify two robbers, one at the right hand, and one at His left.a
30 save Yourself, having descended from the cross!”
32 The Christ, the King of Israel, let Him descend now from the cross, that we might see and believe!” And those being crucified with Him were upbraiding Him. The Death of Jesus
Chapter 16 The Resurrection
6 And he says to them, “Do not be amazed. You seek Jesus, the Nazarene, the One having been crucified. He is risen! He is not here! Behold the place where they laid Him.

BOOK OF Luke
Chapter 9 The Ministry of the Twelve
23 And He was saying to all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and let him take up his cross every day, and let him follow Me.
Chapter 14 Jesus Heals a Man with Dropsy
27 Whoever does not carry his cross and come after Me is not able to be My disciple.
Chapter 23 Jesus Before Pilate
21 But they were crying out, saying, “Crucify! Crucify Him!”
23 But they were urgent, asking with loud voices for Him to be crucified. And their voicesb were prevailing.
26 And as they led Him away, having laid hold on Simon, a certain man of Cyrene coming from the country, they put upon him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus.
33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right, and one on the left.
Chapter 24 The Resurrection
7 saying, ‘It behooves the Son of Man to be delivered into hands of sinful men, and to be crucified, and the third day to arise.’”
20 and that our chief priests and rulers delivered Him up to the judgment of death, and crucified Him.

BOOK OF John
Chapter 19 The Soldiers Mock Jesus
6 Therefore when the chief priests and the officers saw Him, they cried out saying, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate says to them, “Take Him yourselves and crucify Him, for I find no guilt in Him.”
10 Therefore Pilate says to Him, “Do You not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”
15 So they cried out, “Away with Him, away! Crucify Him!” Pilate says to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king except Caesar.” The Crucifixion
16 So then, he delivered Him to them, that He might be crucified. Therefore they took Jesus.
17 And bearing His own cross, He went out to the place called the Place of the Skull, which in Hebrew is called Golgotha,
18 where they crucified Him, and with Him two others, on this side and on that side, and Jesus in between.
19 And Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross. And it was written, JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 Therefore many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, and in Greek.
23 Then the soldiers, when they crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was seamless, woven from the top all throughout.
25 Now His mother, and the sister of His mother, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene, had been standing by the cross of Jesus.
31 Therefore the Jews, because it was the Preparation, so that bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath—for that Sabbath was a high day—asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and they might be taken away.
32 So the soldiers came, and indeed they broke the legs of the first, and of the other having been crucified with Him.
41 Now there was a garden in the place where He was crucified, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had yet been laid.

BOOK OF Acts
Chapter 2 The Holy Spirit at Pentecost
XXX !!! προσπήξαντες 23 Him delivered up by the determinate plan and foreknowledge of God, you put to death, having crucified Him by lawless hands,
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” Three Thousand Believe
Chapter 4 Peter and John Before the Council
10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth—whom you crucified, whom God raised out from the dead—in Him this man stands before you sound.

BOOK OF Romans
Chapter 6 Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be annulled, that we are no longer enslaved to sin.

BOOK OF 1 Corinthians
Chapter 1 Greetings from Paul
13 Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of discourse, so that the cross of the Christ should not be emptied of its power. The Message of the Cross
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those indeed perishing, but to us being saved it is the power of God.
23 we, however, preach Christ having been crucified, a stumbling block indeed to the Jewish and foolishness to Gentiles,
Chapter 2 Paul's Message by the Spirit's Power
2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him having been crucified.
8 which none of the rulers of this age has understood. For if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

BOOK OF 2 Corinthians
Chapter 13 Examine Yourselves
4 For indeed He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by God’s power. For we also are weak in Him, but we will live with Him by God’s power toward you.

BOOK OF Galatians
Chapter 2 The Council at Jerusalem
20 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And that which I now live in the flesh, I live through faith from the Son of God, the One having loved me and having given up Himself for me.
Chapter 3 Faith and Belief
1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as having been crucified?
Chapter 5 Freedom in Christ
11 Now brothers, if I still proclaim circumcision, why still am I persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
24 Now those of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Chapter 6 Carry One Another's Burdens
12 As many as desire to have a fair appearance in the flesh, these compel you to be circumcised, only that they might not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
14 But for me, may it be never to boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whicha the world has been crucified to me and I to the world.

BOOK OF Ephesians
Chapter 2 Alive with Christ
16 and He might reconcile both to God in one body through the cross, by it having slain the hostility.

BOOK OF Philippians
Chapter 2 One in Christ
8 And having been found in appearance as a man He humbled Himself, having become obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Chapter 3 Righteousness through Faith
18 For many are walking—of whom I have told you often and now I say even weeping—as enemies of the cross of Christ,

BOOK OF Colossians
Chapter 1 Greetings from Paul and Timothy
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.
Chapter 2 Absent in Body, Present in Spirit
14 having blotted out the handwriting in the decrees against us, which was adverse to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

BOOK OF Hebrews
Chapter 6 A Call to Maturity
6 and then having fallen away—to restore them again to repentance, crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting Him to open shame.
Chapter 12 The Call to Endurance
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who in view of the joy lying before Him endured the cross, having despised its shame, and sat down at right hand of the throne of God.

BOOK OF Revelation
Chapter 11 The Two Witnesses
8 And their body will be upon the street of the great city, which is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

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Christ on a Stick, too

Post by robert j »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:03 pm
I don't know where these references to Christ crucified might come from? Paul doesn't seem to tie them to much ...
I think one need look no further than what Paul needed to establish his entrepreneurial efforts, to gather paying patrons.

No, not much is tied to Paul’s Christ on a stick. Not much, that is, except the very heart-and-soul, the very crux, the very core of Paul’s spiritual system that provided Paul a leg-up over the rafts of other wild-eyed Jews on the street corners of Greco-Roman cities interpreting the ancient scrolls of Jerusalem with a tin cup in-hand.

Eternal life --- meh! Many Hellenist Gentiles and ethnic Celts of Asia Minor already believed in some form of afterlife. There was also the comparatively mundane promise of salvation from one’s sins that Paul claimed from the salvific suffering and death based on his association of his Jesus Christ with the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. The end is near --- that may have frightened away nearly as many as it may have attracted. But Paul had another hook for those Gentiles that were drawn to the great and ancient supreme God of the Jews --- redemption from the "law" and full participation.

Paul’s system, he claimed, allowed interested Gentiles to fully participate with the Israel of God, to get all that milk and honey, without the necessity of circumcision. After Paul left his Galatian group, I suspect the conversation between Paul’s new recruits and their Jewish friends and neighbors went something like this --- ‘Your son of the supreme God you showed us in our scriptures is, well, creative; and you are still always welcome at many of our activities, but if you want to join-us in celebration of the Passover you'll need to get circumcised'.

Paul’s spiritual system was scripture-centric. Paul’s arguments in the letter Galatians from much of chapter 3 and beyond are scripture-centric, and rightly so. The requirement for circumcision in the scriptures is exceedingly clear and explicit, in the words of the deity no less. Circumcision was required for all native-born Jews and for all converts regardless of age (Genesis 17:9-14, Exodus 12:43-49, Joshua 5:2-8, and Leviticus 12:1-3, LXX). Paul had the weaker hand, but he played it with exuberance and he reminded the audience of the letter about his solution to the lure-of-the-knife that he had previously taught them.

Evidently including both the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision and the Mosaic rituals, Paul claimed his Jesus Christ had been suspended on wood as a means of redemption from the “law”. And that faith in that suspension-on-wood provided the necessary redemption from the need for circumcision and from the Mosaic rituals, and provided access to full participation with the Israel of God.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging upon wood (ξύλου)", so that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that through faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3:13-14).

Paul constructed his argument in Galatians 3:13 from two verses in Deuteronomy ---

Accursed is every man whoever shall not adhere to all the words of this law … (Deuteronomy 27:26, LXX)

… for being cursed by God is every one hanging upon wood (ξύλου) … (Deuteronomy 21:23, LXX)

It was an audacious claim. We’ll likely never know if his skeptical Galatians came around and found his arguments convincing. But his arguments eventually carried-the-day and the centuries, and changed the course of western civilization.

Notes:
I think that “wood” is the better translation for ξύλου in both Deuteronomy and Galatians. The Greek term ξύλου is a very general term used for most anything made from wood from a large beam, a ship’s mast, wood for a box, a wooden stake, firewood, or a wooden toothpick. The term was also used for a tree. In Deuteronomy, the translator of the LXX used ξύλου for the Hebrew הָעֵ֗ץ which in very similar fashion is a general term for most anything made of wood, but also for a tree. Other than poetic license, I’m not aware of any reason to translate either term in either verse as the more specific “tree” rather than the more general “wood”.

In Paul, his only use of ξύλου (wood) is in this verse in Galatians. Elsewhere he used σταυρός (stake), thereby providing some clarification. For Paul, the ξύλου (wood) was in the shape of a σταυρός (stake).

And nowhere in Paul’s letters, including in his specific terminology, is the method of suspension on the wooden stake made clear --- only some unspecified suspension. Impalement cannot be assumed from the evidence at hand. The body could have been perceived as attached to the stake by other means such as by rope, wooden pegs, iron nails, etc.
Last edited by robert j on Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Christ on a Stick, too

Post by mlinssen »

robert j wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:17 pm And nowhere in Paul’s letters, including in his specific terminology, is the method of suspension on the wooden stake made clear --- only some unspecified suspension. Impalement cannot be assumed from the evidence at hand. The body could have been perceived as attached to the stake by other means such as by rope, wooden pegs, iron nails, etc.
And take all the fun out of it? The actual point (pun!) of impalement was the fact that once on it, death was inevitable - even when the stake was removed it couldn't be averted. A slow, agonising death, allowing the victim to be fully aware, able to speak, etc

If there's just a pole and nothing else mentioned (John has nails but only after the resurrection), best thing to assume is that there's nothing else to assume. Ask the Egyptians, they had over a millennium of experience
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Re: Christ on a Stick, too

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:36 pm The actual point (pun!) of impalement ...
robert j wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:17 pm the very heart-and-soul, the very crux, the very core of Paul’s spiritual system
:lol:

And some of Paul's writings were a system to put people at cross-purposes with Judaism. Aspects of it seems as entrepreneurial as spiritual, too.

I'll do another post to briefly address other aspects of what robert j wrote.

mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:36 pm Ask the Egyptians, they had over a millennium of experience
That may be a more pertinent point than you intended
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Re: The Crucifixion in Paul's epistles

Post by MrMacSon »

(some brief ramblings riffing on and in reply to robert j's comment-post three posts up from this one.) Thanks robert j, I think it helped me think about 'Paul' and look more widely that the focus on the stauros and staurōson / staurōson / estaurōsan (and other abstract versions of the assertions about Christ or Jesus or Christ Jesus having been* impaled / crucified in the Pauline epistles. * ie. past tense - Christ isn't ever so much ever 'on a stick' in Paul but is merely said to have been. A small point but I think it may be a significant one, especially in view of your excellent commentary (and the cryptic point / pun I made above about Paul putting people at 'cross purposes' with Judaism).

[There's also issues - gnostic tropes - of Christ being seen or portrayed as a different entity to Jesus and the proposition that 'crucifixion' of Christ-ified Jesus was considered to have resulted in different effects on each, but I'll leave that as a mere proposition here.]

Yes, Paul's system was scripture centric but, as Galatians 2 (to Gal 4, I think) shows, a key aspect of it was the white-washing of key Judaic concepts.

robert j made that point well, as well as the scriptural source for it -
robert j wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:17 pm
Paul’s arguments in the letter Galatians from much of chapter 3 and beyond are scripture-centric, and rightly so. The requirement for circumcision in the [Hebrew] scriptures is exceeding clear and explicit, in the words of the deity no less. Circumcision was required for all native-born Jews and for all converts regardless of age (Genesis 17:9-14, Exodus 12:43-49, Joshua 5:2-8, and Leviticus 12:1-3, LXX). Paul had the weaker hand, but he played it with exuberance and he reminded the audience of the letter about his solution to the lure-of-the-knife that he had previously taught them.

Evidently including both the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision and the Mosaic rituals, Paul claimed his Jesus Christ had been suspended on wood as a means of redemption from the “law”. And that faith in that suspension-on-wood provided the necessary redemption from the need for circumcision and from the Mosaic rituals, and provided access to full participation with the Israel of God.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us; for it has been written: "Cursed is everyone hanging upon wood (ξύλου)", so that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that through faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3:13-14).

Paul constructed his argument in Galatians 3:13 from two verses in Deuteronomy ---

Accursed is every man whoever shall not adhere to all the words of this law … (Deuteronomy 27:26, LXX)

… for being cursed by God is every one hanging upon wood (ξύλου) … (Deuteronomy 21:23, LXX)

It was an audacious claim. We’ll likely never know if his skeptical Galatians came around and found his arguments convincing. But his arguments eventually carried-the-day and the centuries, and changed the course of western civilization.
robert j provided some use full commentary on ξύλου and noted "nowhere in Paul’s letters, including in his specific terminology, is the method of suspension on the wooden stake made clear --- only some unspecified suspension."

I don't think Paul was that worried about the the mechanisms. Christ crucified and the stauros come across as nothing more than a small bait. As I noted in a post up-thread, Paul refers to things 'resulting' from the stauros -
  • the [/i]message[/i] of the stauros
  • the power of the stauros
  • enemies of the stauros
  • the blood of his stauros

I think Martijn made some good points on another thread -
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:05 pm
- perhaps Paul [g]ave them something really exciting, really new: a human to worship. Well, human... I never thought that he was talking about someone being crucified in heaven, or outer space even

What I did think when reading Paul is that he is all making it up from scratch, bragging and boasting and pretending to humble himself - but perhaps that was the rhetoric that they liked, a strong macho talking and talking and talking

I said movement, but with that I only mean a bunch of people chasing something. Pretty much like my Harry Potter example. I studied Languages and Cultures of Latin America and the conversion stories that came along with it were impressive; you live life as you know it, get your ass whooped, and almost automatically - once you've accepted that - take on the religion of your conqueror

Stockholm syndrome, perhaps something like that

I'm unfamiliar with Shepherd of Hermas. So many texts I've never even read...
As Jörg Rüpke noted in Pantheon, Shepherd of Hermas was among a number of fairly popular texts in the early 2nd century, and it's likely stories like Paul's and the gospels would have been too. Then they might have been looked upon as books for life and beyond.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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