Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Giuseppe »

Prof Robert M. Price explains why Jesus was identified with the celestial Adam:

Scholars have quite naturally understood the Kenosis Hymn in Philippians 2:6–11 as describing the incarnation of Jesus Christ. James D.G. Dunn, for example, sees in these verses a contrast between Adam’s fatal misstep of seeking equality with God and Jesus’ disdain for such self-aggrandizement. I think this is not quite right. In my view the Kenosis Hymn not only reflects the story of Adam; it is the story of Adam, an alternative version analogous to that in Ezekiel 28.38 “Being in the form of God, he did not think equality with God a thing to be seized but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, etc.” This sounds to me like an express repudiation of the Genesis version, asserting not that Christ refused to make the same mistake that Adam had made, but rather that Adam did not make the mistake some said [39] he made. He did indeed depart from his original heavenly state to assume the burdens of earthly existence, but this was not a punishment as some believed. Rather it was voluntary (perhaps in order “to learn obedience” as in Hebrews 5:8). Originally the text lacked the phrase “even death on a cross” but referred only to death, mortality in general, the human lot. God then exalted Adam to heavenly glory, the state in which we see him in the Testament of Abraham, investing him with the divine Name, “Yahweh Is Salvation.” Just like Moses and Metatron and the angel Yahoel. Philippians 2:6–11 obviously applies the story to Jesus, but it is not about Jesus of Nazareth. “Jesus” (“Yahweh Is Salvation”) in the hymn referred to the Great Angel receiving the divine Name, just like Yahoel and the Lesser Yahweh. I suspect this is the theo-mythical background for the Ebionites’ and the Naassenes’ identification of Jesus with Adam.

(Bart Ehrman interpreted: how one radical New Testament scholar understands another, p. 223-224, my underline)

Note 39 appears to attribute the exegesis to:

39. James A. Charlesworth, “The Portrayal of the Righteous as an Angel.” In George W.E. Nickelsburg and John J. Collins, eds., Ideal Figures in Ancient Judaism: Profiles and Paradigms. Septuagint and Cognate Studies 12 (Chico: Scholars Press, 1980), p. 138.

I would add this explanation about the Philippians Hymn to my thesis of a particular Nag Hammadi text being the mythological kernel of the Oldest Gospel Passion Story.

Paraphrasing Robert Price's words:

Philippians 2:6–11 obviously applies the story to Jesus, but it is not about Jesus of Nazareth.

...then I may say with equal right:

On the Origin of World 115:23 obviously applies the story to Jesus, but it is not about Jesus of Nazareth

That is my final view, the key unlocking the essentia of any Gospel narrative: the enigmatic dialogue between Pilate and Jesus.

...But before I should read a particular book...
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Secret Alias »

Jesus isn't Adam. He is Ish, the prototype of Adam.
lsayre
Posts: 769
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by lsayre »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:24 am Jesus isn't Adam. He is Ish, the prototype of Adam.
As in Platonic "Form"?
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Secret Alias »

Remember Adam was flawed. This is a consistent heretical point. Adam was made of 'shit' - earth. He died, he's imperfect etc. Adam had a prototype and that prototype is 'Christ' or 'Jesus.' The ideal Adam.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Giuseppe »

Note that when Bob Price says:

This sounds to me like an express repudiation of the Genesis version, asserting not that Christ refused to make the same mistake that Adam had made, but rather that Adam did not make the mistake some said [39] he made.

...he appears to assume implicitly that, according to some 'Gnostics', if Adam didn't the "sin" of eating the prohibited fruit, then that action (the manducation of the fruit) could be seen accordingly also as an effective act of liberation from the tiranny of an evil demiurge (=YHWH).
Jesus isn't Adam. He is Ish, the prototype of Adam
No, the anonymous tractat found in Nag Hammadi is saying exactly the contrary: Jesus is the spirit found in the Adam made of shit:

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 On the origin of the world 115,23 Oldest Gospel Passion Story

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden
and that God destined for our glory before time began.

None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


Then, when the seven rulers came, they saw him and were greatly disturbed.

They went up to him and seized him. And he (viz., the chief ruler) said to the breath within him, "Who are you? And whence did you come hither?"
It answered and said,
"I have come from the force of the man for the destruction of your work."

When they heard, they glorified him.


So they bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate.

“You have said so,” Jesus replied.

He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.


Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Secret Alias »

I don't want to get too deeply involved in a discussion with someone that I don't respect. The facts are that the gnostic stories always invoke a heavenly figure who served as the template for Adam. That's Christ or Jesus in the orthodox understanding.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:51 am I don't want to get too deeply involved in a discussion with someone that I don't respect.
then please you should be more coherent with your own logic: don't dirty my threads when I quote a myth of Jesus/Adam from a book where YHWH is the evil demiurge.

I can imagine the corpses of those Gnostics (you mention) turn in their graves when they hear that you are attributing to them the idea that YHWH was a "good" god, only second in rank. How disgusting! :facepalm:
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Secret Alias »

There's nothing to explain. Adam was created 'according to the likeness.' What's the likeness? It's not that you ask the WRONG questions - you don't ask questions. You use citations to direct you (or us by our misfortune of knowing you) to reinforce conclusions you've already reached.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Giuseppe »

Secret Alias wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:43 am There's nothing to explain. Adam was created 'according to the likeness.' What's the likeness? It's not that you ask the WRONG questions - you don't ask questions. You use citations to direct you (or us by our misfortune of knowing you) to conclusions you've already reached.
for your knowledge, the Nag Hammadi tractatus On the origin of the world has yes the celestial Adam called Jesus and crucified(='glorified') before the creation of the world, but it also confirms Ireneus's account of the Gnostics as haters of YHWH: a point where (knowing you) we can't find never an agreement, sorry.
Secret Alias
Posts: 18362
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:47 am

Re: Bob Price on the reason why Jesus IS Adam

Post by Secret Alias »

There's no point.
Post Reply