Great moments in textual transmission.

[mlinssen]

It doesn't specify either in Crum, yet given the examples there it does get used in both the contexts

Let us start there, then. In which example(s) in Crum does this spelling variant mean human milk?

I'm unsure what you think I said Ben. It's fairly clear from my quote what I did:

There is no way that you can translate ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ, that can only mean colostrum, with leaven. But.. you can use its dialect variant of ⲥⲓⲣ and then write ⲥⲓⲣ. And then anything goes, because can mean 4 different things, whereas ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ can only mean one single thing whatsoever: colostrum

So. If we take this text, it says colostrum, and given the many references to children as infants (not adolescents, or even middle aged children of day 6-10 years) and their drinking of milk, this again is a funny joke but Thomas, of which he makes many. Not only wordplay, but sayings play. In stead of water you take milk, not unusual but just more luxurious. And instead of cow milk or goat milk or anything, you take human milk!

I use the word colostrum, Crum http://coptot.manuscriptroom.com/crum-c ... pageID=353 says first milk (colostrum) (, butter)

It doesn't specifically say animal or human, so I take it to mean either / both. There's a sample of "my womb swelled, breasts".
What is your question, really? Are you claiming that this can only mean animal milk?

[Ben C. Smith]

It doesn't specify either in Crum, yet given the examples there it does get used in both the contexts

Let us start there, then. In which example(s) in Crum does this spelling variant mean human milk?

I'm unsure what you think I said Ben.

I thought you were ruling out butter, whereas some of the examples, by the word they are translating, seem to mean butter. Again, apologies. My mistake.

It doesn't specifically say animal or human, so I take it to mean either / both. There's a sample of "my womb swelled, breasts".

Yes, I see that. Do you happen to have a link to that text?

What is your question, really?

I am wondering whether spelling variants in Coptic are good guides to semantic meaning. Crum wrote before the discoveries at Nag Hammadi. I am trying to look up all of Crum's examples to get a sense of them. Would Crum, given access to Nag Hammadi and other new Sahidic texts, have expanded the range of ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ to include that of the "other" ⲥⲓⲣ, ⲥⲓⲣ = leaven? Or would he have interpreted Thomas 96.2 in terms of ⲥⲓⲣ = milk, butter?

Are you claiming that this can only mean animal milk?

No. That would be a bold claim before even looking up the examples.

[mlinssen]

It doesn't specifically say animal or human, so I take it to mean either / both. There's a sample of "my womb swelled, breasts".

Yes, I see that. Do you happen to have a link to that text?

It's in Crum page 353, the link previously given

What is your question, really?

I am wondering whether spelling variants in Coptic are good guides to semantic meaning. Crum wrote before the discoveries at Nag Hammadi. I am trying to look up all of Crum's examples to get a sense of them. Would Crum, given access to Nag Hammadi and other new Sahidic texts, have expanded the range of ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ to include that of the "other" ⲥⲓⲣ, ⲥⲓⲣ = leaven? Or would he have interpreted Thomas 96.2 in terms of ⲥⲓⲣ = milk, butter?

Ah. Now that is interesting. He would have been faced with a real problem if he had been inclined to do the latter, because it's bad enough to have synonyms, it is excruciating to have synonyms that have spelling variants that are also synonyms. As if that weren't bad enough, those second synonyms being to the first synonyms!
Now that would ruin any language

Sorry. It just says first milk, and the canonicals likely dismissed that, and took less time to discuss it than you and I have here

The ⲙⲁⲁϫⲉ of logion 33 is another example. Synonym, they picked the wrong one. Not "ear", which is a fun pun as well. They certainly didn't have a sense of humour

I'm working on ⲥⲕⲁⲉⲓ, logion 109. It's not in Crum, there's the letter e that is superfluous. The word here could translate to draw-me... instead of plough

[Ben C. Smith]

It doesn't specifically say animal or human, so I take it to mean either / both. There's a sample of "my womb swelled, breasts".

Yes, I see that. Do you happen to have a link to that text?

It's in Crum page 353, the link previously given

I have that link. I mean, do you have a link to the text Crum is referencing? I can look up his OT references well enough. I want to look that one up, too.

[mlinssen]

I have that link. I mean, do you have a link to the text Crum is referencing? I can look up his OT references well enough. I want to look that one up, too.

LOL, no. I took the same journey you did.
Budge, Miscellaneous Coptic Texts, 1913

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL1146226 ... pper_Egypt

Page 719 there, dunno where Crum got his 141. Quickie, brb

Declare unto me this mystery, O Mary. w
She saith : ' Hearken, and 1 will tell thee. From my child-
hood vTpwards I lived a quiet life. I was of no account in
the world and in the affairs thereof. My womb grew large
without [the help of] a man, and my breasts became full of
milk. I never held converse with any young man.

[Ben C. Smith]

I have that link. I mean, do you have a link to the text Crum is referencing? I can look up his OT references well enough. I want to look that one up, too.

LOL, no. I took the same journey you did.
Budge, Miscellaneous Coptic Texts, 1913

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL1146226 ... pper_Egypt

Here it is: https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 0/mode/2up. Fourteenth line up from the bottom. But it seems to be spelled ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ here, not ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ. Does that spelling difference make a difference, do you think?

Budge, Page 141.png (355.67 KiB) Viewed 6528 times

[mlinssen]

I have that link. I mean, do you have a link to the text Crum is referencing? I can look up his OT references well enough. I want to look that one up, too.

LOL, no. I took the same journey you did.
Budge, Miscellaneous Coptic Texts, 1913

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL1146226 ... pper_Egypt

Here it is: https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 0/mode/2up. Fourteenth line up from the bottom. But it seems to be spelled ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ here, not ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ. Does that spelling difference make a difference, do you think?


Budge, Page 141.png

Both are in Crum, only with reference to the first entry. What do you think?

[Ben C. Smith]

I have that link. I mean, do you have a link to the text Crum is referencing? I can look up his OT references well enough. I want to look that one up, too.

LOL, no. I took the same journey you did.
Budge, Miscellaneous Coptic Texts, 1913

https://openlibrary.org/works/OL1146226 ... pper_Egypt

Here it is: https://archive.org/details/miscellaneo ... 0/mode/2up. Fourteenth line up from the bottom. But it seems to be spelled ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ here, not ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ. Does that spelling difference make a difference, do you think?

Both are in Crum, only with reference to the first entry. What do you think?

I do not see ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ in Crum. Which line in the entry is it?

[Ben C. Smith]

I see ⲥⲓⲣ, ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ, ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ, ⲥⲏⲣⲉ, ⲥⲉⲉⲣⲉ, ⲥⲉⲓⲣⲉ, and ⲥⲟⲉⲓⲣⲉ, but not ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ.

[mlinssen]

I see ⲥⲓⲣ, ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣ, ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ, ⲥⲏⲣⲉ, ⲥⲉⲉⲣⲉ, ⲥⲉⲓⲣⲉ, and ⲥⲟⲉⲓⲣⲉ, but not ⲥⲁⲓⲣⲉ.

Ah you're right! Missed that. Now that is interesting indeed, Crum has this very word marked as 3, ⲥⲁⲉⲓⲣⲉ

It's not in the corrections either, and he even addresses page 353 a as well as b

Same in this version. On mobile, hard to do ROFL https://archive.org/details/Miscellaneo ... 3/mode/2up