Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:10 am
DCHindley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:36 am
Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:41 am
DCHindley wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:21 pmBut when I looked at the passage from Plato's
Republic I was struck by the strange way that the text was translated into Coptic. The translator grasped the tripartite nature of the human condition expressed by Plato, but in other ways seemed to miss the mark. Of course, I had to do most of my thinkin' usin' English translations (I read 2-3 well respected ones). There is quite a difference between ETs of this passage, so I am not surprised the E.T. of the Coptic also seems so far from what the Greek seems to say.
I myself have never looked at this version of (part of) the
Republic, but I do remember reading somewhere that the translator does not seem to have understood the work.
The following was how I hashed it out.
Because of
course you did.
I love your synopses and other textual presentations. Man after my own heart.
But look at the significant differences between the two English translations of Plato that I used....
Well, yes, on top of the usual differences in translational strategy (dynamic versus formal equivalence, retaining the archaic versus updating for modern ears, and so on), there is also the matter that Plato and other Greek philosophical writing can be
hard both to understand and to make clear. Honestly, it may be my least favorite kind of Greek to read or to translate. Thucydides is complex, but elegant and sometimes just plain
fun (trebly nested modifying clauses, for example). Plato? I do not recall ever having much "fun" with a passage in Plato.
Do you have this translation of Plato available in a file? That would be great.
Here's a PDF version. I had planned to also include a column with the Greek, but I got bogged down in figuring out the syntax, and it never came to be.
For those who know Greek better than I do (that's you, Ben), the Greek is as follows:
[588α] ἀμηχάνῳ μέντοι νὴ Δία, ἔφη.
[588β] εἶεν δή, εἶπον: ἐπειδὴ ἐνταῦθα λόγου γεγόναμεν, ἀναλάβωμεν τὰ πρῶτα λεχθέντα, δι᾽ ἃ δεῦρ᾽ ἥκομεν.
ἦν δέ που λεγόμενον λυσιτελεῖν ἀδικεῖν τῷ τελέως μὲν ἀδίκῳ, δοξαζομένῳ δὲ δικαίῳ:
ἢ οὐχ οὕτως ἐλέχθη;
οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
νῦν δή, ἔφην, αὐτῷ διαλεγώμεθα, ἐπειδὴ διωμολογησάμεθα τό τε ἀδικεῖν καὶ τὸ δίκαια πράττειν ἣν ἑκάτερον ἔχει δύναμιν.
πῶς; ἔφη.
εἰκόνα πλάσαντες τῆς ψυχῆς λόγῳ, ἵνα εἰδῇ ὁ ἐκεῖνα λέγων οἷα ἔλεγεν.
[588ξ] ποίαν τινά;
ἦ δ᾽ ὅς. τῶν τοιούτων τινά, ἦν δ᾽ ἐγώ,
οἷαι μυθολογοῦνται παλαιαὶ γενέσθαι φύσεις,
ἥ τε Χιμαίρας καὶ ἡ Σκύλλης καὶ Κερβέρου,
καὶ ἄλλαι τινὲς συχναὶ λέγονται συμπεφυκυῖαι ἰδέαι πολλαὶ εἰς ἓν γενέσθαι.
λέγονται γάρ, ἔφη.
πλάττε τοίνυν μίαν μὲν ἰδέαν θηρίου ποικίλου καὶ πολυκεφάλου,
ἡμέρων δὲ θηρίων ἔχοντος κεφαλὰς κύκλῳ καὶ ἀγρίων,
καὶ δυνατοῦ μεταβάλλειν καὶ φύειν ἐξ αὑτοῦ πάντα ταῦτα.
[588δ] δεινοῦ πλάστου,
ἔφη,
τὸ ἔργον:
ὅμως δέ, ἐπειδὴ εὐπλαστότερον κηροῦ καὶ τῶν τοιούτων λόγος,
πεπλάσθω.
μίαν δὴ τοίνυν ἄλλην ἰδέαν λέοντος,
μίαν δὲ ἀνθρώπου:
πολὺ δὲ μέγιστον ἔστω τὸ πρῶτον καὶ δεύτερον τὸ δεύτερον.
ταῦτα,
ἔφη,
ῥᾴω,
καὶ πέπλασται.
σύναπτε τοίνυν αὐτὰ εἰς ἓν τρία ὄντα,
ὥστε πῃ συμπεφυκέναι ἀλλήλοις.
συνῆπται,
ἔφη.
περίπλασον δὴ αὐτοῖς ἔξωθεν ἑνὸς εἰκόνα,
τὴν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
ὥστε τῷ μὴ δυναμένῳ τὰ ἐντὸς ὁρᾶν,
ἀλλὰ τὸ [588ε] ἔξω μόνον ἔλυτρον ὁρῶντι,
ἓν ζῷον φαίνεσθαι, ἄνθρωπον.
περιπέπλασται, ἔφη.
λέγωμεν δὴ τῷ λέγοντι ὡς λυσιτελεῖ τούτῳ ἀδικεῖν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ,
δίκαια δὲ πράττειν οὐ συμφέρει,
ὅτι οὐδὲν ἄλλο φησὶν ἢ λυσιτελεῖν αὐτῷ τὸ παντοδαπὸν θηρίον εὐωχοῦντι ποιεῖν ἰσχυρὸν καὶ τὸν λέοντα καὶ τὰ περὶ τὸν λέοντα,
τὸν [589α] δὲ ἄνθρωπον λιμοκτονεῖν καὶ ποιεῖν ἀσθενῆ,
ὥστε ἕλκεσθαι ὅπῃ ἂν ἐκείνων ὁπότερον ἄγῃ,
καὶ μηδὲν ἕτερον ἑτέρῳ συνεθίζειν μηδὲ φίλον ποιεῖν,
ἀλλ᾽ ἐᾶν αὐτὰ ἐν αὑτοῖς δάκνεσθαί τε καὶ μαχόμενα ἐσθίειν ἄλληλα.
παντάπασι γάρ,
ἔφη,
ταῦτ᾽ ἂν λέγοι ὁ τὸ ἀδικεῖν ἐπαινῶν.
οὐκοῦν αὖ ὁ τὰ δίκαια λέγων λυσιτελεῖν φαίη ἂν δεῖν ταῦτα πράττειν καὶ ταῦτα λέγειν,
ὅθεν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὁ ἐντὸς [589β] ἄνθρωπος ἔσται ἐγκρατέστατος,
καὶ τοῦ πολυκεφάλου θρέμματος ἐπιμελήσεται ὥσπερ γεωργός,
τὰ μὲν ἥμερα τρέφων καὶ τιθασεύων,
τὰ δὲ ἄγρια ἀποκωλύων φύεσθαι,
σύμμαχον ποιησάμενος τὴν τοῦ λέοντος φύσιν,
καὶ κοινῇ πάντων κηδόμενος,
φίλα ποιησάμενος ἀλλήλοις τε καὶ αὑτῷ,
οὕτω θρέψει;
κομιδῇ γὰρ αὖ λέγει ταῦτα ὁ τὸ δίκαιον ἐπαινῶν.
κατὰ πάντα τρόπον δὴ ὁ μὲν τὰ δίκαια ἐγκωμιάζων ἀληθῆ