Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:41 amThe LXX translates yashar (noun) with chrestos.
How many times, though? Once? (Proverbs 2.21.) By far the most common Hebrew word standing behind χρηστός in the LXX/OG is טוֹב.
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

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Yes. Just once.
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

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But the idea that Christianity = (super) Israel is intriguing
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

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Another interesting reference to the Nazoraeans, specifically to their gospel. There are many from the medieval period which I have not included in this thread, but which are available in A. F. J. Klijn, Jewish-Christian Gospel Tradition readily enough. But he does not seem to have included this one (as pointed out by Wolfram Kinzig in his chapter in Jewish Believers in Jesus) from century XIII, so I am posting it here:

A. Vögtlin, Vita Beate Virginis Marie et Salvatoris Rhythmica, pages 57-58 (translation mine):

(From the prologue to the second book.)

Ex diversis ergo libris diversaque collegi
Et in unum opus stilo rudissimo redegi,
Ut ex evangelio, quod Nazareorum
Vocatur, et ex hoc quod est dictum Hebreorum,
Quod sanctus Jeronimus scitur transtulisse,
Et nullam ibi falsitatem credimus scripsisse
Sanctum virum; que si tamen apocrifa dicantur,
Tamen ibi nulla falsa posita probantur;
Ad hoc et Honorius in libro, qui vocatur
Speculum ecclesie, mihi suffragatur.
In ecclesiastica historia beata
Pontifex Eusebius est quedam protestata;
Et historigraphi ut sanctus Egisippus,
Affricanus, Josephus, Orosius, Philippus
Scriptis suis ad hoc opus nobis affuerunt;
Ipsi nam de Jesu Christi tempore scripserunt.


From diverse books, therefore, I both collected diverse things and redacted them into one work in a very raw style, as from a gospel which is called of the Nazareans, and from that which is said to be of the Hebrews, which Saint Jerome is known to have translated, and we believe the saintly man not to have written any falsity there; which things, even if they should be said to be apocryphal, nevertheless no falsehoods are approved as having been put there. In addition to this also Honorius, in a book which is called Mirror of the Church, is vouched for by me. In the blessed Ecclesiastical History the pontiff Eusebius published certain testimonies. And historiographers such as Saint Hegesippus, Africanus, Josephus, Orosius, (and) Philip have been present with us for this work in their writings. For they themselves have written concerning the time of Jesus Christ.

Quick and dirty, literalistic translation. Corrections welcome.

The list of source materials stands out:
  • Gospel of the Nazoreans.
  • Gospel of the Hebrews, translated by Jerome.
  • Mirror of the Church, by Honorius (Augustodunensis).
  • Ecclesiastical History, by Eusebius.
  • Hegesippus.
  • (Julius) Africanus.
  • (Flavius) Josephus.
  • (Paulus) Orosius.
  • Philip (Sidetes, I presume).
The Mirror of the Church is also from century XIII, I think, so contemporaneous (or nearly so) with the author of the Vita Beate Virginis. Eusebius, Jerome, Africanus, Josephus, Orosius, and Philip Sidetes are all known fodder for medieval authors. I would like to think that the Hegesippus listed here is the one quoted by Eusebius, but it may instead be pseudo-Hegesippus (author of De Excidio). What remains are the two gospel texts, which unfortunately may refer to Latin compilations extracted from multiple sources, early and late, whose only qualification is that they be noncanonical and not overtly heretical. Such references abound in the medieval literature (in Sedulius Scotus, Haimo of Auxerre, Hugo of Saint Cher, Petrus de Riga, and others).

Ben.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

That same medieval work contains this detail:

A. Vögtlin, Vita Beate Virginis Marie et Salvatoris Rhythmica, page 129 (translation mine):

Cum ergo Jesus a Johanne foret baptizatus,
Populusque plurimus cum ipso renovatus,
Ecce, celum est apertum, lux magnaque refulsit
In Jesum, necnon universos presentes circumfulsit.


When, therefore, Jesus was to be baptized by John, and very many people with him renewed, behold, heaven was opened, and a great light flashed upon Jesus, but did not flash round all those present.

Did our author perhaps derive this datum from one of those gospel texts listed? It did not come from Josephus or Eusebius. The gospel attributed by Epiphanius to the Ebionites contains the baptismal light. (And of course Justin Martyr knows of a baptismal fire, which seems to be cut of the same cloth.)
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by rakovsky »

I am answering you here, Ben, from another thread because it's more relevant here. But I still need to read this thread.
Ben C. Smith wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:59 pm It is true that, if Pliny were drawing from a Christian source, he might have used a zee. So was he? What Christian source might have told him about a Tetrarchy named after Jewish Christians by that name? Do we even have a source, of whatever date, which suggests that Jewish Christians formed their own Tetrarchies?
Tetrarchy literally refers to a council of four rulers running a place. The term shows up in "Herod the Tetrarch". IIRC, however, when Pliny used this term, he did not mean it in a strict literal way. In other words, when he named the different tetrarchies in the Middle East, I recall that he did not mean it to absolutely mean that each "tetrarchy" literally had a group of four rulers, and instead it could have been a kind of shorthand way to refer to a separate autonomous/sovereign land/kingdom/republic, etc. I could be misremembering this.

It's relevant to consider what the Jewish Christian community of western Syria was like in the 1st-2nd century to see if Pliny could have been talking about that.

- Acts talks about Jewish Christians (ie. Nazarenes) in Berea, Syria, the "Bereans." Aleppo is the current name.

-There is an early medieval Christian tradition about Abgar the king of Edessa (in Syria, depending on how you define Syria) in the 1st century being Christian, but it's commonly considered to be a fanciful confusion with the Christian king there in the late 2nd century AD. One reason is because we don't have ancient records of this Syrian king being Christian, since scholars don't pay much attention to Pliny's reference. However, there was at least a major Christian community in Edessa in the late 2nd century.

- A TIME article on a 10th century Muslim text talks about Nazarenes moving into Syria in 62 AD:
The document itself is a rambling, 600-page manuscript, written by the 10th century Moslem theologian, Abd-al-Jabbar. About 140 pages of his text consist of an Arabic translation of a much older Syriac account of Nazarene beliefs, probably dating from the 5th century and presumably written by members of the sect. The Nazarenes, who claimed descent from Jesus' first disciples, were driven out of Palestine into Syria around 62 A.D. after a bitter quarrel with other Christians.
http://content.time.com/time/subscriber ... -1,00.html
- Then sometime before 77 AD, Pliny writes his Natural History for Titus. So the Nazarenes would be living there in Pliny's time, unless Pliny made a mistake, purely copied Marcus Agrippa's work without updating it for current events, and thus the group was no longer in Syria. The term Tetrarchy suggests that the Nazerini had some kind of either independent or autonomous rulership. Apamea had an alternate name of "Pella" in Syria, and the Nazerini were across the river Marsyas from Pella/Apamea. I remember seeing a diagram of Apamea's relationship to the Marsyas river/creek (a tributary of the Orontes), but I am having trouble finding it again. It makes sense that the Marsyas river would be on the same side of the Orontes as Apamea in order for the Nazerini Tetrachy to be described as being on the opposite side of that creek (or else it would be described as being on the opposite side of the Orontes). It also makes sense that the Nazerini Tetrarchy would be near Apamea. Here is a map of Apamea:
Image

Wikipedia's article on the Alawites connects the Z in Nazerini to the Semitic ц, noting:
the term "Nazerini" can be possibly connected to words which include the Semitic triliteral root n-ṣ-r such as the subject naṣer in Eastern Aramaic which means "keeper of wellness".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites# ... n_theories
- I read that the Parthian client kingdom of Adiabene, located in what was once "Assyria", had a major Christian community before the Roman empire accepted Christianity. The Roman empire's acceptance of Christianity led the Sassanids to take a less favorable view of Christianity.

- Epiphanius and Jerome both talk about Nazarene communities in Berea, Syria in their time (4th-5th cent AD). In Epistle 79, Jerome wrote:
To-day there still exists among the Jews in all the synagogues of the East a heresy which is called that of the Minæans [Hebrew minim- sectarians?], and which is still condemned by the Pharisees; [its followers] are ordinarily called ‘Nasarenes’
Jerome also writes regarding the Gospel of the Hebrews:
The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilius the martyr so diligently collected. From the Nazoreans who use this book in Beroia, a city of Syria, I also received the opportunity to copy it.
I take the "East" to refer to places like Syria and Assyria. Neil Godfrey also refers to mention of a group called something like the Nasoreans in Filiaster.

- Western Syria has "the valley of the Christians", Wadi al-Nasara, but I don't know how far back that designation goes.

- Pritz writes in his book on the Nazarenes:
The confusion may have started quite early. At the turn of this century, R. Dussaud noted a passage in the Ecclesiastical History of Sozomen (VII 15) in which he tells of some “Galileans” who helped the pagans of Apamea against the local bishop and the Christians. Dussaud rightly called into question the likelihood that the Galileans — that is, Jewish Christians — would side with the pagans in a dispute over the keeping of idols, and he suggested that the people referred to were “certainly either Nusairi or Nazerini, whom Sozomen has confused with the Nazarenes.” Sozomen’s source here is unknown. Dussaud further suggested that the writer Greg Aboulfaradj (Chron. Syr. I 173) in the year 891 confused the Nusairi with the Mandaeans . . . and was followed by others.
- I am inclined to think that the Nazarini are somehow related to the Alawite Nosairis because they inhabit the same region. But it could be an issue of false cognates, and the centuries between the records of the two groups also weakens the case. The Alawite Nusairis' beliefs seem quite different from "orthodox" Nazarenes, but remind me of how I read that the ancienr/medieval Christian Nosairis had some unusual semi-Christian/Ebionite beliefs and practices. The Wikipedia article on the Alawites says:
Alawite doctrine incorporates Islamic, Gnostic, neo-Platonic, Christian (for example, they celebrate Mass including the consecration of bread and wine) and other elements and has, therefore, been described as syncretic.
...
Other beliefs and practices include: the consecration of wine in a secret form of Mass performed only by males; frequently being given Christian names; entombing the dead in sarcophagi above ground; observing Epiphany, Christmas[93] and the feast days of John Chrysostom and Mary Magdalene;[94] the only religious structures they have are the shrines of tombs
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

But I still need to read this thread.
:thumbup:
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Secret Alias »

Whenever we read pagan reports we have to remind ourselves of how badly informed they sometimes were. Case in point Plutarch's Table Talk on the Jews. Laughable reporting.
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by cora »

You say Julius Africanus says that the relatives from Jesus come from Nazara and Cocham, VILLAGES OF JUDEA.
You simply leave that VILLAGES OF JUDEA out of your writing. You are manipulating the scarce information in your own interest.
Which is proving Jesus existed and came from Galilea, like the gospels first mentioned in 185 said. Very badly done, Ben.
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Re: Of Nazirites & Naṣoraeans.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

:lol:
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