Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
maryhelena
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by maryhelena » Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:47 am

StephenGoranson wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:38 am
If one dates the earliest mentions (in texts that may possibly be copies of earlier ones) of the Wicked Priest and theTeacher of Righteousness before 76 BCE, then identifications with Antigonus or his brother Hyrcanus II would seem unlikely.
Oh dear, Stephen, it seems Antigonus is just too much for you to handle - along with Greg Doudna of course.

Yes, you have your own theory on the Wicked Priest of the DSS - as does Greg - so why not let scholarship take its course instead of getting on your high horse at the mention of Antigonus and Greg Doudna.

Jannaeus, His Brother Absalom, and Judah the Essene
Stephen Goranson


http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/jannaeus.pdf


ALLUSIONS TO THE END OF THE HASMONEAN DYNASTY
IN PESHER NAHUM (4Q169)
Gregory L. Doudna


In his death at the hands of gentiles
Antigonus Mattathias corresponds with the portrayal of the death of
the Wicked Priest, and Antigonus Mattathias is the only Hasmonean
ruler of the first century bce who does.

And so it seems to me that the wicked ruler of these texts reflects
Antigonus Mattathias, and that the Lion of Wrath alludes to Mark
Antony who hung up alive Antigonus and perhaps other members of
Antigonus’s regime similarly unremarked in Josephus, and that key
Qumran pesharim such as Pesher Habakkuk, Pesher Psalms A, Pesher
Nahum, Pesher Hosea B and others all allude in their various ways to
the downfall of this last Hasmonean ruler, Antigonus Mattathias. And
it is surprising to me that this suggestion seems to be new. Despite
the striking correspondences between Antigonus Mattathias and the
Wicked Priest just named and no obvious counter-indication, so far as
I have been able to discover there has never previously been a scholarly
suggestion that the Wicked Priest might allude to Antigonus Mattathias.
And in asking how Antigonus Mattathias was missed I am
including myself, for I too missed this in my study of Pesher Nahum
of 2001. Now let us return to Pesher Nahum again.

https://www.academia.edu/12144236/_All ... 169_2011_

Antigonus, the last King and the High Priest of the Jews. Executed by the Roman Marc Antony in 37 b.c. The end of the Hasmonean Dynasty. Yes, it's very difficult for those upholding a historical Jesus, crucified by the Roman Pilate, to acknowledge the fate of a historical King of the Jews. A King of the Jews that fought against Rome - a 'zealot' Jesus figure. Indeed, those gospel writers had this historical template front and centre as they wrote their Jesus story. Of course, there is more to the gospel Jesus story than an execution by Roman agents. But, nevertheless, a Roman execution of a King of the Jews is a primary aspect of that gospel Jesus story. And, no, Jannaeus, is no model for the Jesus story the gospel writers created. Antigonus is. And if Antigonus was front and centre for the gospel writers - how much more so for the writers of the DSS. A priest, like his father, that contributed to the civil war between his father and his uncle, a civil war that lead to the downfall of the Hasmonean dynasty. Enough 'wickedness' going on there for any Hyrcanus supporters to decry the 'wicked' son of Aristobulus.

StephenGoranson
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by StephenGoranson » Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:47 am

Yes, mh, I make mistakes, which I try to correct.
Yes, I have a proposal about W.P. and T.R. (though not as a "model" for NT),
based in part on archaeology dating--is that disallowed in snark-view?
Yes, a horse metaphor might be appropriate: you, beating a dead one.

maryhelena
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by maryhelena » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:44 am

StephenGoranson wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:47 am
Yes, mh, I make mistakes, which I try to correct.
Yes, I have a proposal about W.P. and T.R. (though not as a "model" for NT),
based in part on archaeology dating--is that disallowed in snark-view?
Yes, a horse metaphor might be appropriate: you, beating a dead one.
:eek:

Dating documents is very often open to debate. However, it's the story the manuscripts relate that is primary. The most realistic canditate for the wicked priest of the DSS is not Jannaeus - it is Antigonus, the last King and High Priest of the Hasmonean dynasty that was executed by the Roman Marc Antony.

As to dating - here is a link to an interesting article.


Feature-extraction methods for historical manuscript dating based on
writing style development

Maruf A. Dhali∗
, Camilo Nathan Jansen, Jan Willem de Wit, Lambert Schomaker
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Bernoulli Institute, University of Groningen, 9747 AG Groningen, the Netherlands


Within the scope of this article, we use 595 fragments from the
DSS collection. The fragments have been categorized into periods
according to the traditional nomenclature. These periods are, in
sequence: Archaic, early-Hasmonean, Hasmonean, late-Hasmonean,
early-Herodian, Herodian, late-Herodian, and post-Herodian. The
corresponding age-ranges of these periods to can be found in
Table 1

Table 1
Traditional periods and their corresponding time-spans.
Please note that these ranges are not exact, but rather
an estimation. Here, BCE stands for before the common
(or current) era and CE stands for common (or current)
era.

Period Sub-period Year range

Archaic 300 BCE - 175 BCE

Hasmonean Early 175 BCE - 100 BCE

Late 100 BCE - 40 BCE

Herodian Early 40 BCE - 10 CE

Late 10 CE - 70 CE

Post-Herodian 70 CE - 135 CE

Manuscripts labeled as only Hasmonean or only Herodian are less
specific in their estimation, as these encompass the entire period
instead of the early or late part. One important note here is that
these ranges are not exact, but rather an estimation. A discussion
on the exactness of these periods is beyond the scope of this work.
These ranges will act as data points only, and will not have any impact
on the framework of the model. Changing these date-ranges
will always be possible following scholarly consensus.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ ... 20300386

I see no dating in this study that would suggest that Greg Doudna's identification of Antigonus as the wicked priest of the DSS is without credibility.

maryhelena
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by maryhelena » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:31 am

To briefly sum up the DSS argument that has got into this thread:

Stephen Goranson: Jannaeus is the DSS wicked priest and Judah the Essene is the Teacher of Righteousness.

Greg Doudna: Antigonus is the DSS wicked priest and Hyrcanus II is the Teacher of Righteousnesss.

Stephen Goranson's theory: There is no historical evidence for the existence of the Josephan figure of Judah the Essene (Rachael Elior's theory aside) - there is no historical evidence to support this Josephan figure. Equating a historical figure to a Josephan figure without evidence of historicity is not a theory with any historical credibility.

Greg Doudna's theory: Antigonus and Hyrcanus II are historical figures. Both these historical figures lived at the end of the Hasmonean dynasty. An end time if ever there was one. The relationship between these two Hasmonean Kings and High Priests has a history going back a few years prior to the events of 63 b.c. Hyrancus II was removed by Aristobulus II and the Romans removed Aristobulus and reinstated Hyancus as High Priest. Eventually, the son of Aristobulus, Antigonus, removed Hyrcanus from the High Priesthood by mutilating his ears - thereby removing the High Priesthood from him. Antigonus was executed by Marc Antony in 37 b.c. Hyrcanus was executed, dated by Josephus, around 30 b.c. (re Greg Doudna - Hyrancus might have been executed prior to 30 b.c.)

Josephus had a reason for placing the execution of Hyrcanus II in 30 b.c. Not simply that this year was 7 years from the execution of Antigonus, nor that this year was also the suicide of the executioner of Antigonus, Marc Antony. Seemingly, Josephus is viewing 30 b.c. as the tragic end of the Hasmonean dynasty. Placing the execution of the last Hasmonean High Priest in 30 b.c. connects the High Priesthood to the re-start of rebuilding of the Jerusalem temple 490 years earlier between 520 and 516 b.c. (70 weeks of years)

It's Daniel's numbers that play a role in end time historical scenarios - not the DSS scribes interest in Ezekiel's 390 years... ;)

Hasmonean history is what it is - albeit primarily relying on Josephus. Hasmonean history demonstrates the identity of the DSS Teacher of Righteousness, Hyrancus II. It also identifies the wicked priest as Antigonus. That's the historical showdown between the followers of Hyrancus II and the son of Aristobulus II.

=============================

A recent article by Kenneth Atkinson - rejecting the identification of Jonathan, Jannaeus and Antigonus as the wicked priest of the DSS. Interestingly, however, Atkinson does deal with the mutilating of Hyrancus by Antigonus. Oddly, even with admitting this he still goes with Hyrancus II as the wicked priest...... :banghead:

“The Case for Hyrcanus II as the “Wicked Priest” and a Pirate: Evidence from a Neglected Roman Historical Source.”

Kenneth Atkinson


https://www.academia.edu/43774225/_The_ ... cal_Source_

===========================

Greg Doudna

A Narrative Argument that the Teacher of Righteousness was Hyrcanus II


http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/201 ... 8018.shtml

StephenGoranson
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by StephenGoranson » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:44 am

maryhelena wrote "I see no dating in this study that would suggest that Greg Doudna's identification of Antigonus as the wicked priest of the DSS is without credibility." That study did not report specific dates for any specific DSS mss, so what mh did "see" seems irrelevant. But the project is continuing and will, I expect, eventually report revised specific, machine-learning-assisted-estimated, date ranges. We'll--then--see.
maryhelena's summary of my proposal is not accurate.

maryhelena
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by maryhelena » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:57 am

StephenGoranson wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:44 am
maryhelena wrote "I see no dating in this study that would suggest that Greg Doudna's identification of Antigonus as the wicked priest of the DSS is without credibility." That study did not report specific dates for any specific DSS mss, so what mh did "see" seems irrelevant. But the project is continuing and will, I expect, eventually report revised specific, machine-learning-assisted-estimated, date ranges. We'll--then--see.
maryhelena's summary of my proposal is not accurate.
OK - then instead of assertion why not correct any statement of mine you believe is not accurate regarding your position on the DSS ?

davidmartin
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by davidmartin » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 am

Jesus in the Talmud or Paul?
What is the incident involving Yehoshua ben Peraḥya? The Gemara relates: When King Yannai was killing the Sages, Yehoshua ben Peraḥya and Jesus, his student, went to Alexandria of Egypt. When there was peace between King Yannai and the Sages, Shimon ben Shataḥ sent a message to Yehoshua ben Peraḥya: From me, Jerusalem, the holy city, to you, Alexandria of Egypt: My sister, my husband is located among you and I sit desolate. The head of the Sages of Israel is out of the country and Jerusalem requires his return.

Yehoshua ben Peraḥya understood the message, arose, came, and happened to arrive at a certain inn on the way to Jerusalem. They treated him with great honor. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya said: How beautiful is this inn. Jesus, his student, said to him: But my teacher, the eyes of the innkeeper’s wife are narrow [terutot]. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya said to him: Wicked one! Do you involve yourself with regard to that matter, the appearance of a married woman? He produced four hundred shofarot and ostracized him. Jesus came before Yehoshua ben Peraḥya several times and said to him: Accept our, i.e., my, repentance. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya took no notice of him. One day Yehoshua ben Peraḥya was reciting Shema and Jesus came before him with the same request. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya intended to accept his request, and signaled him with his hand to wait until he completed his prayer. Jesus did not understand the signal and thought: He is driving me away. He went and stood a brick upright to serve as an idol and he bowed to it. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya then said to Jesus: Repent. Jesus said to him: This is the tradition that I received from you: Whoever sins and causes the masses to sin is not given the opportunity to repent. And the Master says: Jesus performed sorcery, incited Jews to engage in idolatry, and led Israel astray. Had Yehoshua ben Peraḥya not caused him to despair of atonement, he would not have taken the path of evil.
Compare this with what the Ebionites said about Paul
Epiphanius quoted them as saying Paul was of Greek parentage, that he came to Jerusalem and fell in love with the daughter of the High Priest For this reason he converted to Judaism. When he was rejected, he turned against circumcision, the Sabbath, and the Law (Epiphanius, Panarion
  • A woman - Instead of an innkeepers wife you have the high priest's daughter
    Rejection - Instead of rejection by his teacher he's rejected by the woman
    Apostasy - The accusation of apostasy is idolatry (worship of Jesus?) compared to rejection of the law
    Jerusalem - in both stories there is a journey to Jerusalem
Paul also claimed to have studied under a great rabbi and what we know of him would fit this encounter
Paul's gospel also has an emphasis on atonement
It fits him far better than what is known of the gospel Jesus

Maybe someone more learned can find other parallels?

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:44 am

davidmartin wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:16 am
Jesus in the Talmud or Paul?
What is the incident involving Yehoshua ben Peraḥya? The Gemara relates: When King Yannai was killing the Sages, Yehoshua ben Peraḥya and Jesus, his student, went to Alexandria of Egypt. When there was peace between King Yannai and the Sages, Shimon ben Shataḥ sent a message to Yehoshua ben Peraḥya: From me, Jerusalem, the holy city, to you, Alexandria of Egypt: My sister, my husband is located among you and I sit desolate. The head of the Sages of Israel is out of the country and Jerusalem requires his return.

Yehoshua ben Peraḥya understood the message, arose, came, and happened to arrive at a certain inn on the way to Jerusalem. They treated him with great honor. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya said: How beautiful is this inn. Jesus, his student, said to him: But my teacher, the eyes of the innkeeper’s wife are narrow [terutot]. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya said to him: Wicked one! Do you involve yourself with regard to that matter, the appearance of a married woman? He produced four hundred shofarot and ostracized him. Jesus came before Yehoshua ben Peraḥya several times and said to him: Accept our, i.e., my, repentance. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya took no notice of him. One day Yehoshua ben Peraḥya was reciting Shema and Jesus came before him with the same request. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya intended to accept his request, and signaled him with his hand to wait until he completed his prayer. Jesus did not understand the signal and thought: He is driving me away. He went and stood a brick upright to serve as an idol and he bowed to it. Yehoshua ben Peraḥya then said to Jesus: Repent. Jesus said to him: This is the tradition that I received from you: Whoever sins and causes the masses to sin is not given the opportunity to repent. And the Master says: Jesus performed sorcery, incited Jews to engage in idolatry, and led Israel astray. Had Yehoshua ben Peraḥya not caused him to despair of atonement, he would not have taken the path of evil.
Compare this with what the Ebionites said about Paul
Epiphanius quoted them as saying Paul was of Greek parentage, that he came to Jerusalem and fell in love with the daughter of the High Priest For this reason he converted to Judaism. When he was rejected, he turned against circumcision, the Sabbath, and the Law (Epiphanius, Panarion
  • A woman - Instead of an innkeepers wife you have the high priest's daughter
    Rejection - Instead of rejection by his teacher he's rejected by the woman
    Apostasy - The accusation of apostasy is idolatry (worship of Jesus?) compared to rejection of the law
    Jerusalem - in both stories there is a journey to Jerusalem
Paul also claimed to have studied under a great rabbi and what we know of him would fit this encounter
Paul's gospel also has an emphasis on atonement
It fits him far better than what is known of the gospel Jesus

Maybe someone more learned can find other parallels?
Here is the passage in the Panarion:

Epiphanius, Panarion 30.16.6-9: 6 They speak of other Acts of Apostles in which there is much thoroughly impious material, and from them arm themselves against the truth in deadly earnest. 7 They lay down certain ascents and instructions in the supposed “Ascents of James,” as though he were giving orders against the temple and sacrifices, and the fire on the altar — and much else that is full of nonsense. 8 Nor are they ashamed to accuse Paul here with certain fabrications of their false apostles’ villainy and imposture (= Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1.26.2; Origen, Against Celsus 5.65; Homily 19 on Jeremiah 18.12; Epistle of Peter to James 2.5; Clementine Recognitions 1.70.1-1.71.6). They say that he was Tarsean — which he admits himself and does not deny. And they suppose that he was of Greek parentage, taking the occasion for this from the (same) passage because of his frank statement, “I am a man of Tarsus, a citizen of no mean city” (= Acts 21.39). 9 They then claim that he was Greek and the son of a Greek mother and Greek father, but that he had gone up to Jerusalem, stayed there for a while, desired to marry a daughter of the high priest, and had therefore became a proselyte and been circumcised. But since he still could not marry that sort of girl [μηκέτι λαβόντα τὴν τοιαύτην κόρην] he became angry and wrote against circumcision, and against the Sabbath and the legislation.

Not sure that rejection "by the woman" herself is the only interpretation here, but yes, Paul seems to have been rejected in one way or another in this version of his life story.

Your list of parallels includes apostasy and a woman; to characterize one's ideological opponents as apostates is a very common move, and to further reduce their motivations to the seduction of a woman (or of multiple women) is likewise a very common move. (Irenaeus accuses various heretics of lust, Octavian accuses Antony of shirking his duties for the love of Cleopatra, and the list goes on and on.) It also includes a trip to Jerusalem. Okay... but this is Jerusalem. Jews and proselytes were going up to Jerusalem all the time. I am not sure that replacing one dodgy identification (the student of Yehoshua ben Peraḥya with Jesus) with another, even dodgier identification (that same student with Paul) is the most economical option. Or maybe all you are suggesting is a sort of parallelistic copycatting, much like what we find in Acts? Paul and Peter have their careers modeled after each other, and both are modeled to some extent after Jesus, but they are still known to be Paul and Peter, and no one confuses the two. They are just made to follow similar templates.

davidmartin
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by davidmartin » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:04 pm

Paul though with his claim of religious schooling does match the character in the Talmud
Whereas there isn't much to connect Jesus with formal schooling
They might be garbled versions of a more original telling

There are hints of woman trouble with Paul, was he married?
Clement says "And Paul does not hesitate, in one of his epistles, to greet his wife, whom he did not take about with him, that he might not be inconvenienced in his ministry"
I doubt the accuracy of this material as well, but it does bring a woman into the picture

I think he may have been separated

You'll probably not agree at all with my next connection, when I read 1 Corinthian's 7 i think she may have been on the scene there as he makes a few sarcastic statements "In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is--and I think that I too have the Spirit of Christ" (Christ not God is earlier MS reading). This is what i see though going on here, a relationship problem
This telling and retelling later ended up in such stories the Ebionites told and possible the Talmud

There is also the account in the Clementine's of a fight over a woman going on between Simon (the Paul cipher mode engaged?) and another. So a similar thing pops up again there.

Not expecting you to be convinced!

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Jesus in the Mishnah, the Tosefta, & the Talmud.

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:26 pm

davidmartin wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:04 pm
There are hints of woman trouble with Paul, was he married?
Clement says "And Paul does not hesitate, in one of his epistles, to greet his wife, whom he did not take about with him, that he might not be inconvenienced in his ministry"
I doubt the accuracy of this material as well, but it does bring a woman into the picture
Philippians 4.3 is a bit mysterious, granted, but "wife" is only one of several options for σύζυγος, which may be either masculine or feminine.
I think he may have been separated
Could be.
Not expecting you to be convinced!
Well, good. :lol: :cheers:

I always enjoy your posts, David. Agreeing with something is not a criterion for my enjoyment of it.

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