Paul baptizes “twelve”

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by Giuseppe »

John the Baptist is not condemned in Clementines. What is condemned is the Gnostic cooptation of John the Baptist, allegorized by Dositheus and the Magus being disciples of the Baptist.

As collateral effect, you may say at most that John the Baptist's authority results mitigated by his having similar evil disciples. But a mitigation is not a condemnation.

The Judaizers loved the Baptist. He was the living confirmation, in their eyes, that Jesus was known by YHWH and his prophets.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
davidmartin
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by davidmartin »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:55 am John the Baptist is not condemned in Clementines. What is condemned is the Gnostic cooptation of John the Baptist, allegorized by Dositheus and the Magus being disciples of the Baptist.

As collateral effect, you may say at most that John the Baptist's authority results mitigated by his having similar evil disciples. But a mitigation is not a condemnation.

The Judaizers loved the Baptist. He was the living confirmation, in their eyes, that Jesus was known by YHWH and his prophets.
Giuseppe, Judaizers yes i agree, but not the Ebionites in the Clementines

Here, in this text John is portrayed as a kind of Gnostic - nowhere does it say Dositheus or Simon co-opted John
You are reading a Judaizing interpretation into the Clemetines that isn't there!

"But of these thirty (disciples), the first and the most esteemed by John was Simon"
John is "the standing one" hence Dositheus and Simon fight: "If you are the standing one, I also will worship you"
So in this sect the title "standing one" is given to the leader, hence John had this title
Also do not forget Helena - she was John's lady before she was Simons as is clearly stated in the Clementines!

So your portrayal of gnostic co-option by Simon of John is fictitious and doesn't agree with the text which i've excerpted for you here and in the previous post. In the Clementines John, Dositheus and SImon are all treated the same, they're condemned
Like I said this John may not have been John the baptist

John the Baptist, Simon Magus and Dositheus were all part of the same sect, with Simon as the star pupil and Helena Magus part of the group but to begin with she is John's female companion and this John is "the standing one".
This is not how John the Baptist is described in the gospels!
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by Giuseppe »

Also the Gospel Jesus had Judas among his 12 disciples. The presence of Dositheus and the Magus among the followers of John the Baptist is only designed to mitigate the authority of the latter, but not to reject him as the Judaizers rejected the Magus.

Stuart agrees with me that the John the Baptist of the Fourth Gospel hated YHWH, hence he was a Gnostic cooptation of the Synoptical John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
davidmartin
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by davidmartin »

Giuseppe, ok but i think your missing what the text is saying when it talks about the method of combination

What if the John the Baptist of the fourth gospel was the the John the baptist in the Clementines?
If you already think there was a gnostic John then it would make sense
- The co-option of the baptist of Josephus was a later development - the Clementines preserves an earlier history?
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by Giuseppe »

The Clementines can't preserve an earlier story because "John" means "YHWH gives grace". Anti-YHWH Christians can't invent one with that name. In virtue of the same reason, "Jesus", i.e. "YHWH gives help" couldn't be invented by Gnostics.

But the Gnostics could well co-opt Jesus and John. Afterall, they were radical Gentilizers, and the Gentiles didn't know the ethymology of Jesus. For them, Jesus had a sound similar to Iasius, meaning: Healer.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
davidmartin
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by davidmartin »

no, John was called John by his father - he didn't get to choose his name
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by Giuseppe »

You are assuming a historical John (an adorer of YHWH, as pious Jew), but I don't. Raschke argues for a root of "Essene" meaning "Baptizer" and John deriving from Greek Iôn. Hence "John the Baptist" would stand for "the Greek Baptizer". Tomorrow I will say more things about Raschke's view about John.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
davidmartin
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by davidmartin »

well i still think the Clementines are against John the baptist whether he's historical or not and i don't think if that was true it would hurt your theory either. it might support your theory. I truly doubt you can simply divide people up into adorers or haters of YHWH though... i just don't know what that means!
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by Giuseppe »

I don't think haters of YHWH existed in I° CE. Paul and the Pillars adored YHWH. The point is that the haters of YHWH (basically: Marcion) entered on stage when the first gospel was written (130-140 CE). They co-opted the Jesus of the Jewish-Christians by writing the Earliest Gospel. All the previous writings (Odes of Solomon, Hebrews, Didache, Paul, etc) ignore a historical (=Gospel) Jesus.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
davidmartin
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Re: Paul baptizes “twelve”

Post by davidmartin »

but it's worse than that, i don't know what YHWH means. what is YHWH?
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