Those who sought the child's life are dead.

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Ben C. Smith
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Those who sought the child's life are dead.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Interesting point mentioned kind of in passing in an article by S. C. Carlson which he recently uploaded to Academia.edu:

Matthew 2.19-20: 19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.”

Herod dies (singular), but the angel reports that those who sought the child's life are dead (plural). What is the angel talking about? Who are these other dead people alongside Herod? Well, probably no one, since the line is simply an echo from the Exodus narrative:

Exodus 4.19: 19 Now Yahweh said to Moses in Midian, “Go back to Egypt, for all the men who were seeking your life are dead.”

The correspondence is tight:

Exodus: τεθνήκασιν γὰρ πάντες οἱ ζητοῦντές σου τὴν ψυχήν.
Matthew: τεθνήκασιν γὰρ οἱ ζητοῦντες τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ παιδίου.

In Exodus we have reason to believe that there may be men besides Pharaoh who want him dead ("surely the matter has become known," 2,14), and there are two chapters between the death of Pharaoh (2.23) and the assurance that "all the men" who have been wanting Moses dead are themselves now dead (4.19). In Matthew we find none of this: Herod dies (singular), and it is therefore announced that people (plural) are dead. I think these are the kinds of clues to look for to determine direction of influence between texts.

Ben.
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Re: Those who sought the child's life are dead.

Post by Secret Alias »

So an echo of Exodus. Yes. The Easter service too. Calls into question how much of the Gospel narrative is real. A patchwork of scriptural references.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Those who sought the child's life are dead.

Post by Giuseppe »

This remembers about the famous passage of the Ascension of Isaiah, the ruler (singular) put his hands on the son of god and they (plural) crucified him.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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maryhelena
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Re: Those who sought the child's life are dead.

Post by maryhelena »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:54 pm Interesting point mentioned kind of in passing in an article by S. C. Carlson which he recently uploaded to Academia.edu:

Matthew 2.19-20: 19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.”

Herod dies (singular), but the angel reports that those who sought the child's life are dead (plural). What is the angel talking about? Who are these other dead people alongside Herod? Well, probably no one, since the line is simply an echo from the Exodus narrative:

Exodus 4.19: 19 Now Yahweh said to Moses in Midian, “Go back to Egypt, for all the men who were seeking your life are dead.”

The correspondence is tight:

Exodus: τεθνήκασιν γὰρ πάντες οἱ ζητοῦντές σου τὴν ψυχήν.
Matthew: τεθνήκασιν γὰρ οἱ ζητοῦντες τὴν ψυχὴν τοῦ παιδίου.

In Exodus we have reason to believe that there may be men besides Pharaoh who want him dead ("surely the matter has become known," 2,14), and there are two chapters between the death of Pharaoh (2.23) and the assurance that "all the men" who have been wanting Moses dead are themselves now dead (4.19). In Matthew we find none of this: Herod dies (singular), and it is therefore announced that people (plural) are dead. I think these are the kinds of clues to look for to determine direction of influence between texts.

Ben.
Interesting echo of an OT Moses story in the gospel story. Here is another echo from the past - Paul as a prototype of Moses' successor Joshua.

Moses an OT prototype of Jesus.

Joshua an OT prototype of Paul. Like Joshua, Paul opens the road to the Promised land. In Paul's case - the Jerusalem above. The King of Jericho wants Rahab to bring out Joshua from her house. In Damascus, the governor under King Aretas, wants to seize Paul. Joshua and Paul both escape through a window in the wall - Jericho and Damascus.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
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davidmartin
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Re: Those who sought the child's life are dead.

Post by davidmartin »

The Odes of Solomon contain a parallel

"All my persecutors have died" Ode 42
"Then all the seducers became headstrong and fled, and the persecutors became extinct and were blotted out" Ode 23

Not sure if this helps..
I consider this to be a little 'hyperbole' in the Odes (it's more poetic license maybe) and they're alluding more to 'spiritual death' or some hoped for outcome (because i believe they are pre-70 i have to deny its anything to do with the outcome of the war or my thesis turns to rubble)
i don't think anything historical can be said about these verses
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mlinssen
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Re: Those who sought the child's life are dead.

Post by mlinssen »

The entire Egypt scheme by Matthew is a ploy

The fleeing to Egypt fulfils another prophecy, according to Matthew:
(Matthew 2:14 He arose and took the young child and his mother by night and departed into Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called my son.")

That last sentence is from Hosea 11:1 and relates to the exodus of the people of Israel:

(Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.)

Whereas the Ramah "prophecy" could - with a mindset of being exceptionally generous and most forgiving - be attributed to Matthew regrettably having access to only that one verse, such doesn't apply here - unless that generosity and forgiveness were to be extended even further, supposing Matthew to have access to only the third and last phrase of Hosea 11:1.
It is beyond a doubt that Matthew is knowingly and willingly making up prophecies here, and these are not the last, and most certainly not the least that we will see

Finally, Matthew has another angel appear to Joseph to tell of Herod's death, upon which Joseph returns to Galilee:

(Matthew 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in the place of his father, Herod, he was afraid to go there. Being warned in a dream, he withdrew into the region of Galilee, 23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets that he will be called a Nazarene.)

In order to escape the reign of Archelaus it apparently suffices to go to Galilee, where Herod Antipas reigns, who just like Archelaus is yet another son of Herod the Great - and even goes by the same name as his father? To yet again fulfil a prophecy, one of which not even a single word can be found in the entire Tanakh? Being called a Nazarene?
Matthew is the schmarketeer of the gospels, the only thing stopping him from making up stuff is actually getting caught...
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