Ben C. Smith wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:03 pm
No, that is not my point. My point is that Eusebius dates Against Heresies in the same way he dates the letter to Eleutherus: by using the available internal indicators.
Eusebius, History of the Church 5.5.9: 9 In the third book of his work Against Heresies he has inserted a list of the bishops of Rome, bringing it down as far as Eleutherus (whose times we are now considering), under whom he composed his work. He writes as follows: .... [And here he quotes from book 3 of Irenaeus, Against Heresies.]
He tells us how he dated this text. He quotes the passage that gave him the clue in full, and he does so soon after using the same method to date the epistle of Irenaeus to Eleutherus; I mention the letter both by way of analogy and because it gives Eusebius extra incentive to date Irenaeus' floruit to the episcopate of Eleutherus.
Meaning, if the internal information is part of later writers addition of pseudo autobiographical material, then it's not reliable, being drawn from later legend.
It also means Eusubius is not an independent witness, but merely repeating the information from the compendium editor of the books he is dating.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
Stuart wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:07 pmMeaning, if the internal information is part of later writers addition of pseudo autobiographical material, then it's not reliable, being drawn from later legend.
It also means Eusubius is not an independent witness, but merely repeating the information from the compendium editor of the books he is dating.
I agree that Eusebius' method has practically zero chance of catching forgeries, frauds, and other forms of literary deceit. What I am pointing out is that he does indeed have a method.
He does. The methodology does also indicate that not much was known about early (70 - 180 CE) Christianity outside of books. The Jews and Samaritans had more in the way of oral tradition.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:40 pm
He does. The methodology does also indicate that not much was known about early (70 - 180 CE) Christianity outside of books. The Jews and Samaritans had more in the way of oral tradition.
I tend to agree. Whatever oral transmission there was seems to have pretty much died out fairly soon.
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:40 pm
He does. The methodology does also indicate that not much was known about early (70 - 180 CE) Christianity outside of books. The Jews and Samaritans had more in the way of oral tradition.
I'd go further and say not much was known about Christianity prior to the Antonine Plague, as this event is essentially without mention. Reliable history seems to start sometime in the mid-3rd century
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift
It would make an interesting thread - much like Ben's secular history thread - to list all the oral traditions associated with the early Fathers.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
When you asked me about Against the Valentinians, and I mentioned the Philosophumena, and the work Photius read by Hippolytus which is based on something originally written by Irenaeus, and the other works called Against All Heresies floating around - it is worth noting what Irenaeus himself says in the Preface to Against Heresies:
But thou wilt accept in a kindly spirit what I in a like spirit write to thee simply, truthfully, and in my own homely way; whilst thou thyself (as being more capable than I am) wilt expand those ideas of which I send thee, as it were, only the seminal principles; and in the comprehensiveness of thy understanding, wilt develop to their full extent the points on which I briefly touch, so as to set with power before thy companions those things which I have uttered in weakness.
In other words, Irenaeus appears to be encouraging what Tertullian does to Irenaeus's works - i.e. spiritually developing them. That all these works were works in progress. It seems rather Montanist to me which is why - curiously - Montanists are not mentioned as heretics anywhere in the work(s).
At least part of this 'openness' to modification is because Irenaeus himself expanded on Justin's original Syntagma.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
