Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

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Giuseppe
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Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by Giuseppe »

Thomas 17:
Jesus said: I will give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has not entered into the heart of man.


1 Corinthians 2:7-10:

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived” —
the things God has prepared for those who love him


10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Note the difference:
  • Paul quotes Isaiah 64. At any case, the verse is not attributed to Jesus.
  • Thomas attributed the verse to Jesus, or to a person later identified as Jesus.


This makes sense if Thomas was written in the late first century or early second century by someone in a remote community who was cobbling together various sayings that had been passed around by word of mouth throughout the Christian community, and this one just happened to have been misattributed to Jesus as a result of the phone game.

If Jesus had actually said this statement, how bizarre would it be that Paul came up with the same statement independently? And it would make even less sense that Thomas was written prior to Paul and that Paul had read Thomas and was actually quoting here from Thomas, because Paul doesn't attribute the words to Jesus, nor does Paul ever attribute any words to Jesus (except the Eucharist ritual). Clearly Paul had no knowledge of sayings of Jesus, because in all of his letters, he doesn't attribute sayings or teachings to Jesus. So this, to me, is a very revealing passage in the Gospel of Thomas. Paul has to have said this first, and Thomas is copying from Paul while misattributing the saying to Jesus.

(R.G.Price, Deciphering the Gospels: Proves Jesus Never Existed, p. 149-150)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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mlinssen
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by mlinssen »

What Price claims here is nonsense, because Paul damn well had his reasons.
The problem will all the so-called biblical scholars (there are exceptions to the rule) is that no-one of them formulates a strategy, none of them have a plan (and then consequently had to stick to that of course!)

What was the goal of any one "gospel" writer? And what, naturally, the scope of their possible goals? What were they after, to what extent did they consider and allow for collateral damage?
What were their requirements?
Their incentives?
Their rewards?

"What is in it", in short, for Thomas to copy Paul, and vice versa?

How can something not make sense, Robert? Because you didn't invent it or came up with it?
"It is written" Robert, a clear attempt at pointing to scripture

Paul considers himself to be the centre of the universe and he is more than willing to sacrifice anyone and anything, by the dozens, for his own ego and glory.
Paul is the Messenger of his invisible Hero, invisible even on the background. He will make his Puppet speak, dance, twist and turn as he pleases

Paul needs to repossess anything Jesus, so he gets the credibility that he speaks in the name of Jesus, to so conveniently far located "Jesus-clubs".
And as such he copies Thomas here, naturally leaving out the typically Thomasine hand. Thomas was quoting Tanakh as usual, with a twist as usual. Which Isaiah is Paul allegedly quoting here, 64:4? Where does the heart come from? biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/2-9.htm

When I read Paul, I see Thomas all over the place: just as Mark reuses Thomas words to sketch the general context, so does Paul. He just does it in a far more clever way, not surprisingly so, as he comes a few decades after all of them
Giuseppe
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:16 am "What is in it", in short, for Thomas to copy Paul, and vice versa?
Robert Price (who is not R.G.Price, the author of the quote above), says that 1 Cor 2:6-8 is a Valentinian interpolation, and some say that the Gospel of Thomas is a Valentinian Gospel. Hence a possibility is that both derived from the same source.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
lsayre
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by lsayre »

Yes, there appears to be some confusion between Robert M. Price and Robert G. Price.
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mlinssen
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:28 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:16 am "What is in it", in short, for Thomas to copy Paul, and vice versa?
Robert Price (who is not R.G.Price, the author of the quote above), says that 1 Cor 2:6-8 is a Valentinian interpolation, and some say that the Gospel of Thomas is a Valentinian Gospel. Hence a possibility is that both derived from the same source.
People say things all the time, they have a word for that: gossip, hearsay, brainfarts, etc

I'll make a note of my Robert Price being M, for Mean ROFL
Last edited by mlinssen on Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mlinssen
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:28 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:16 am "What is in it", in short, for Thomas to copy Paul, and vice versa?
Robert Price (who is not R.G.Price, the author of the quote above), says that 1 Cor 2:6-8 is a Valentinian interpolation, and some say that the Gospel of Thomas is a Valentinian Gospel. Hence a possibility is that both derived from the same source.
Anyone clubbing Thomas together with any other text doesn't have more than a handful of brain cells. When I compare Thomas with the gospel of Truth it's like comparing Genesis 1 with Romans
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by MrMacSon »

lsayre wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:15 am Yes, there appears to be some confusion between Robert M. Price and Robert G. Price.
Is r.g. price's first name [also] Robert? (he's always presented himself as r.g., afaik)
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:24 pm Anyone clubbing Thomas together with any other text doesn't have more than a handful of brain cells. When I compare Thomas with the Gospel of Truth it's like comparing Genesis 1 with Romans
You'd be contrasting those texts? :)
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:14 pm
Thomas 17:

Jesus said: I will give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has not entered into the heart of man.

1 Corinthians 2:7-10:

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived” —
the things God has prepared for those who love him


10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Note the difference:
  • Paul quotes Isaiah 64. At any case, the verse is not attributed to Jesus.
  • Thomas attributed the verse to Jesus, or to a person later identified as Jesus.

This makes sense1 if Thomas was written in the late first century or early second century by someone in a remote community who was cobbling together various sayings that had been passed around by word of mouth throughout the Christian community, and this one just happened to have been misattributed to Jesus as a result of the phone game.

If Jesus had actually said this statement, how bizarre would it be that Paul came up with the same statement independently? And it would make even less sense that Thomas was written prior to Paul and that Paul had read Thomas and was actually quoting here from Thomas, because Paul doesn't attribute the words to Jesus, nor does Paul ever attribute any words to Jesus (except the Eucharist ritual). Clearly Paul had no knowledge of sayings of Jesus, because in all of his letters, he doesn't attribute sayings or teachings to Jesus. So this, to me, is a very revealing passage in the Gospel of Thomas. Paul has to have said this first, and Thomas is copying from Paul while misattributing the saying to Jesus.

(R.G.Price, Deciphering the Gospels: Proves Jesus Never Existed, p. 149-150)

1 What are you implying here, Giuseppe? That r.g. price was referring exactly to what you're referring to?

Or, are you trying to recruit or co-opt r.g. price to a typically oblique take of yours?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Paul versus Thomas: who is before?

Post by MrMacSon »

mlinssen wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:16 am
Paul considers himself to be the centre of the universe and he is more than willing to sacrifice anyone and anything, by the dozens, for his own ego and glory.

Paul is the Messenger of his invisible Hero, invisible even on the background. He will make his Puppet speak, dance, twist and turn as he pleases.

Paul needs to repossess anything Jesus, so he gets the credibility that he speaks in the name of Jesus, to so-conveniently far-located "Jesus-clubs".

And as such he copies Thomas here, naturally leaving out the typically Thomasine hand. Thomas was quoting Tanakh as usual, with a twist as usual.

Which Isaiah is Paul allegedly quoting here, 64:4? Where does the heart come from? biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/2-9.htm

When I read Paul, I see Thomas all over the place: just as Mark reuses Thomas words to sketch the general context, so does Paul. He just does it in a far more clever way, not surprisingly so, as he comes a few decades after all of them
.
[paragraph-spacing, hyphens, italics, and underlining added by me]

nb. 'so conveniently far located "Jesus-clubs" ' - a great point!

Mark elaborating on Paul has been a theme for a decade or so now, via various scholarship-commentaries. such as Tom Dykstra's 2012 Mark: Canonizer of Paul; Richard Carrier's 2014 On the historicity of Jesus; r.g price's 2018 Deciphering the Gospels; and perhaps David Oliver Smith's books and published articles (and perhaps others'work).

It'll be interesting looking at all that in light of Martijn's proposals, perhaps even through a Thomasine lens.

(I also wonder if most of the Pauline epistles are that much earlier than Mark's & the other canonical authors' gospels: I wonder if they were doctored together in later times eg. when Acts was being put together).
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