Carrier on "gnosticism"

[Joseph D. L.]

All of this is irrelevant because I never said elsewise. What I am against is YOUR misrepresentation and abuse of Hoffmann, Jackson, Celsus, and petty much everyone, to front your agenda that the Marcionites hated YHWH and as a consequence were thoroughly anti-Judaism.

Marcion

• lowered YHWH's position as secondary, or even thirdly, power

• believed that the Laws of Moses were no longer necessary

But Marcion believed the Tanakh was literal history, and that his religion was the absolution of Judaism. His religion made concessions to Judaism, compared Jesus to Adam, uses teachings from the Torah, had Jesus/Isu appear in a Jewish country, and made John the Baptist, a Jew, the greatest prophet of all. If you want to dismiss all of that as the result of "Judiazers" then more power to you. Just that you then have zero evidence for anything you say following and that it is all pure speculation on your end.

[Giuseppe]

John the Baptist

oh yes, I'll take care of John afterwards. You can swear it.

[Joseph D. L.]

John the Baptist

oh yes, I'll take care of John afterwards. You can swear it.

lol

[Giuseppe]

All of this is irrelevant because I never said elsewise.

In whiletime, my total congratulations for the fact that you agree openly with Jackson (hence giving me reason on all the front):

...he [Celsus] carps single-mindedly at Christian groups whose unifying feature, for him, is belief that Jesus' father is a different god, superior and opposed to Yahweh, the Creator (5.52, 54, 61; 6.19, 27, 29, 52-53, 74; 7.18).

...Although Celsus knows quite a variety of sectarian groups (Origen, Cels., 5:61-62) he lavishes attention, not surprisingly, on those that best suit his polemical purpose of impeaching Christian monotheism. In pursuit of this objective he focuses on groups whose dualism is more radical in its depreciation of the Creator and whose superexaltation of Jesus as son of the transcendent god is concomitantly most extreme. Of these groups there seem to be only two. On the one hand are Marcion and his followers, who are clearly and probably in view in many of the fragments of Celsus, often with explicit support of Origen (Cels. 2.27; 5:54, 62; 6:29, 52, 53, 73, 74; 7,18, 25). On the other hand, is a sect ... "Ophite"...

(Howard M. Jackson, The Setting and Sectarian Provenance of the Fragment of the "Celestial Dialogue" Preserved by Origen from Celsus's Αληθὴς Λόγος, my bold)

[Joseph D. L.]