Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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Ben C. Smith
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Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Paul envisions that, at the advent of the Lord Jesus, some people will still be alive, and will thus never experience death:

1 Corinthians 15.51-52: 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

But there was a Jewish notion that every single human being would die by the end:

4 Ezra 7.26-34: 26 For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass, that the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed. 27 And every one who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders. 28 For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. 29 And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. 30 And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left. 31 And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. 32 And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. 33 And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; 34 but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.

What I am wondering is which view, if either, the author of our only canonical apocalypse has in mind. He certainly seems to focus on the dead:

Revelation 6.9-11:

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed, even as they had been, would be completed also.

Revelation 20.4-15:

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The fate of "the saints" in "the beloved city" is not narrated. They apparently survive the war itself, but do they survive after that? Only the dead are discussed at the judgment seat.

Are there any verses in Revelation which might reflect the Pauline perspective, namely, that there will be survivors who do not die at the end? Or does John the Revelator perhaps hew more closely to the doom and gloom of 4 Ezra?

Ben.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

Post by Charles Wilson »

Hello Ben --

Thoughtful topic.

I believe that the NT was assembled in a consistent manner in regards to the Total Death of the End days:

Matthew 24: 21 - 22 (RSV):

[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
[22] And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

This is repeated in Revelation:

Revelation 7: 13 - 17 (RSV):

[13] Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"
[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his
presence.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
[17] For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Here is another instance of the NT being written from different eyes and different visions. See: "The Law" is not a burden in the OT. It is in the NT. There is an unbridgeable gulf between God and Man in the Pauline NT. Moses reasoned with God in the OT.

I believe you know my position as regards the Tribulation. It was "Stolen" from a Story about Alexander Jannaeus and rewritten in Apocalyptic terms for the NT. After Jannaeus survives "The Tribulation" and marches on Jerusalem, he lives awhile and dies, giving the Rulership to Salome. She gives the Citadels to the survivors of this Tribulation as a reward for their service to Jannaeus, hence the Revelation Passage quoted above.

When done this way, consistency is the least of the concerns. The Ezra Passage goes beyond even what is found in the other Minor Prophets: God could only raise the dead after 3 days, not even 4. That's the "Miracle" of Lazarus. If you don't think there are Epistemological Issues here, guess again. Consistency left town a long time ago.

Whether these are strictly Platonic Structures being Mapped onto Israelite => Judaic Thought or more is an open question.

Ecclesiastes 9: 5 - 6, then 7 (RSV):

[5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.
[6] Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and they have no more for ever any share in all that is done under the sun.

This is tough medicine to swallow and the Platonic Structures were welcomed. Even God already approving of your living a joyous life was not enough:

[7] Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do.

Nonetheless, I believe the NT promise of Eternal Life won out because it promised a reward for a good life lived properly with the evil and wicked brought to Judgement. As such, the NT View finds that all flesh would not die, not for seven days, not for fewer days. This is NOT consistent with the OT.

"...but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened"

Best to you, Ben.

CW
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Ken Olson
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

Post by Ken Olson »

Very interesting question Ben.

What do you make if Rev. 21.3-4:

3 “See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.”

This looks to me like God is coming to dwell with mortals, i.e., living people who could die, but death won’t exist after God comes to dwell with them. Of course, I could be wrong about what “mortals” means, or the time that God lives with them will be limited, so they may die after that. Or, possibly, something else.

Best,

Ken
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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Ken Olson wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:44 pm Very interesting question Ben.

What do you make if Rev. 21.3-4:

3 “See, the home of God is among mortals.
He will dwell with them;
they will be his peoples,
and God himself will be with them;
4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes.
Death will be no more;
mourning and crying and pain will be no more,
for the first things have passed away.”

This looks to me like God is coming to dwell with mortals, i.e., living people who could die, but death won’t exist after God comes to dwell with them. Of course, I could be wrong about what “mortals” means, or the time that God lives with them will be limited, so they may die after that. Or, possibly, something else.
Is that the RSV? If the Greek word in that first line happened to be the one of the two that I might have expected to find lurking behind the English word "mortal" in a translation (θνητός or βροτός), I would be more likely to jump on it as evidence for the Pauline view. But the word is ἄνθρωπος, which can be and is used of immortals, so I am not sure it points to anything Pauline in particular.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

Post by Ken Olson »

Ben,

NRSV. Right, it’s ἄνθρωπος, so if you know of ἄνθρωπος being used for immortals, this wouldn’t be decisive. Who would these people be then? Previously dead people who have already been resurrected?

Best,

Ken
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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Ken Olson wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:12 pm NRSV. Right, it’s ἄνθρωπος, so if you know of ἄνθρωπος being used for immortals, this wouldn’t be decisive. Who would these people be then? Previously dead people who have already been resurrected?
Well, if the position of this passage right after the judgment scene is any indication, it could just be previously dead people who have already been raised. But that very much depends upon there being no clear indications of the Pauline view.

My reason for wondering is an odd little path my mind chose to take after reading "The Martydrom of Enoch and Elijah: Jewish or Christian?" by Richard Bauckham. He makes what I feel is a pretty decent case (A) that the idea of an apocalyptic return of Enoch and Elijah predates and is independent of Christianity and (B) that the idea of Enoch and Elijah being slain and then resurrected, on the other hand, is Christian and probably dependent across the board upon Revelation 11.3-13.

So I started wondering what might have inspired the idea that Enoch and Elijah would die at the eschaton and then be resurrected, and of course there is the fact that they are portrayed as never having died in the first place. I remember the evangelical circles of my childhood concerning themselves with the matter of these two figures in light of Hebrews 9.27 (it being "appointed for men to die once, and then judgment") in a mildly apologetic sort of way, defending this verse from potential accusations of falsehood on account of Enoch and Elijah. And then I remembered that Hebrews and Revelation actually have quite a lot in common (Jesus being said to be from Judah, the heavenly Jerusalem, calling it Zion, a tabernacle in heaven, and so on); and I recalled having wondered before where the "living" were in certain parts of Revelation (it always seems to be about the martyrs!); and I thought, perhaps the latter text depends upon the former, or perhaps both stem from the same milieu, and the author of Revelation was actually making the math of mortality work out: everybody dies, as per 4 Ezra, even those for whom it was postponed the first time through, on the principle in Hebrews that it is "appointed for men to die once." Hence the deaths of Enoch and Elijah as "the two witnesses."

One snag, besides the inquiry of the OP, is that the two witnesses in Revelation 11.3-13 actually come off looking more like Moses and Elijah than like Enoch and Elijah. Yet there are plenty of church fathers who insist that Enoch and Elijah will be returning, a couple of them specifically linking Revelation 11.3-13 to this belief. Not sure what to do with that angle yet, since in some circles Moses was indeed seen as having been translated much in the manner of Enoch and Elijah.

This may all just be a dead end; in that case, then, so be it; but I would be interested to know whether there is anything worth pursuing here.
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davidmartin
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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another odd thing, and sorry i'm too busy to check, is someone assured me that in Revelation no-one goes into the 'lake of fire' except the few named individuals, contrary to the assumption this describes 'hell' , so everyone else just is dead
but whatever.. i recon it could originally have been a 'bar kochba' prophecy originally and someone modded it to Jesus just for the 'hell' of it
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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davidmartin wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:17 am another odd thing, and sorry i'm too busy to check, is someone assured me that in Revelation no-one goes into the 'lake of fire' except the few named individuals, contrary to the assumption this describes 'hell' , so everyone else just is dead
That looks very unlikely to me:

Revelation 13.8: 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Revelation 20.15: 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:44 pm Paul envisions that, at the advent of the Lord Jesus, some people will still be alive, and will thus never experience death:

1 Corinthians 15.51-52: 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

But there was a Jewish notion that every single human being would die by the end:
I wonder if Paul sees that those who are changed at the end are already technically 'dead', so it makes sense that their corruptible mortal body can be changed to an incorruptible immortal one (1 Cor 15:54) along with the actual dead:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Are there any survivors in the apocalypse of John?

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A scattering of observations with respect to the issue brought up in the OP....

It has always struck me that the millennial reign in Revelation specifies only the martyred dead:

Revelation 20.4-6: 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The second death again....

The notion of the lake of fire as a second death, strictly speaking, already implies that those cast into the lake of fire have suffered a first death:

Revelation 20.14-15: 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

On a separate but related note, I pointed out that Hebrews and Revelation share quite a lot in common, but so do 4 Ezra and Revelation, including this bit:

Revelation 20.12-13: 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

4 Ezra 7.26-34: 26 For behold, the time will come, when the signs which I have foretold to you will come to pass, that the city which now is not seen shall appear, and the land which now is hidden shall be disclosed. 27 And every one who has been delivered from the evils that I have foretold shall see my wonders. 28 For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. 29 And after these years my son the Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. 30 And the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings; so that no one shall be left. 31 And after seven days the world, which is not yet awake, shall be roused, and that which is corruptible shall perish. 32 And the earth shall give up those who are asleep in it, and the dust those who dwell silently in it; and the chambers shall give up the souls which have been committed to them. 33 And the Most High shall be revealed upon the seat of judgment, and compassion shall pass away, and patience shall be withdrawn; 34 but only judgment shall remain, truth shall stand, and faithfulness shall grow strong.

The book of Revelation as a whole seems almost boyishly eager to refer to the holy dead:

Revelation 6.9-11: 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been would be completed also.

Finally, what of the following verses?

Revelation 13.7: 7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Revelation 13.15: 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Revelation 14.13: 13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

If the Beast has authority to overcome the saints, which would be the class of humans not worshiping the image of the Beast, maybe the saints do not survive. Maybe the wrath described in chapters 16-19 is being poured out on all humans who remain alive, all of whom bear the mark of the Beast. Here is the third bowl, for example:

Revelation 16.4-7: 4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7 And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

Does this sound like there are still righteous people on the earth? To me it sounds as if the righteous have been slain, and it is their collective blood which is being avenged by the turning of the waters into blood. Also, by this time in the book, the enemy whom the Beast endeavors to wage war against is the Lamb (17.14) or the One sitting astride the White Horse (19.19); the living righteous do not seem to be in view as targets at this point in the text.

Is it possible, then, that John the Revelator actually envisions that all righteous humans are destined to be slain in "the great tribulation" (7.14) until only those who support the Beast remain?
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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