While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Jero
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:47 am

While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Post by Jero »

While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

The Christian Bible is full of anomalies and wrong or misleading translations, where ‘word for word’ is disregarded when it shows a biblical figure(s) or term in poor light. What’s happened to ‘saying the truth’ or ‘saying it as the author wrote it.’ Take the Greek word ιδιωται (idiṓtēs); Englisce: idiots. The word idiot has been used in the Englisce vocabulary for three centuries or more. However, biblical translators gloss the term ιδιωται when translating from Greek to Englisce, and idiṓtēs is inevitably rendered in most cases as unlearned, etc. We see this in Acts 4:13 were John and Peter are said in Greek translation to be illiterate idiots in the 1550 Stephanus (Greek) New Testament (TR1550). However, ιδιωται/idiots in the various BibleHub Englisce translations become: unlearned, unschooled, uneducated, ordinary men and not well educated, untrained, ignorant men, illiterate and ignorant men, uninstructed, illiterate persons, unlettered and plebeian (plebeian: a person from a low Roman class or common people).
https://biblehub.com/acts/4-13.htm And in some translations idiot or idiots becomes the term private, or private person! However, as a researcher, the term idiot(s) is what it was meant in its original way before religion got its hands on it and glossed it over.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... ve-history
Bible Prudish Anomalies
On verse 14 of Judges chap. 1 of the NEB version we have the translation she ‘Broke wind (ṣanāḥu).’ Every other Englisce translation versions are to ‘Dismounting a Donkey’ or Ass, etc. It is sad if the differences are down to suit religious prudery. However, that is not the only anomalies between the different Englisce translations. Here, I only have two versions the NEB and NIV, but both are very different and both contradict each other. Especially on broke wind v dismounting a donkey and on who was to ask for the land or was it water? Check it out for yourselves? http://www.katapi.org.uk/NEB/07%20judges.pdf

The NEB version of Judges 1:14-15
14 When she [Achsah] came to him, he [Othniel] incited her to ask her father for a piece of land. As she sat on the ass, she broke wind, and Caleb said, ‘What did you mean by that?’
15 She replied, ‘I want to ask a favour of you. You have put me in this dry Negeb; you must give me pools of water as well.’ So Caleb gave her the upper pool and the lower pool. [ ] Bkt. Are mine.


The NIV version of Judges 1:14-15
14 One day when she [Achsah]came to Othniel, she urged him to ask her father for a field. When she got off her donkey, Caleb asked her, “What can I do for you?”
15 She replied, “Do me a special favour. Since you have given me land in the Negev, give me also springs of water.” So Caleb gave her the upper and lower springs. [ ] Bkt. Are mine.

*Othniel was the son of Caleb’s younger brother Kenaz, so Achsah and Othniel were 1st cousins, in other versions Othniel is Caleb’s brother.

However, it is thanks to lexicographers that we do not see Dismounting a Donkey in Thesaurus for synonyms for Gas/ Vapours/Wind/Fart[fahrt] or cut the cheese or let her rip!https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/fart

What do you say on the biblical anomalies?
ebion
Posts: 411
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2023 11:32 am

Re: While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Post by ebion »

Jero wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:36 am The Christian Bible is full of anomalies and wrong or misleading translations, where ‘word for word’ is disregarded when it shows a biblical figure(s) or term in poor light. ...

What do you say on the biblical anomalies?
There are more than anomalies: there are many outright Howlers.
Last edited by ebion on Wed Jan 17, 2024 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
StephenGoranson
Posts: 2312
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:10 am

Re: While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Post by StephenGoranson »

In case it is useful, here is part of what Oxford English Dictionary gives for idiot, noun:

1.a.
c1384–
A person without learning; an ignorant, uneducated person; a simple or ordinary person. Now archaic and rare.
[With reference to the Apostles (see quots. c1384, c1450) ultimately after ancient Greek ἰδιώτης in its specific sense ‘ignorant, layman’ (so in Acts 4:13, the passage translated in quot. c1384).]

c1384

Forsoth thei seynge the stedfastnesse of Petre and John, founden that thei weren men with oute lettris, and idiotis [a1425 L.V. men vnlettrid, and lewid men; Latin homines..sine litteris et idiotæ], wondriden.

Bible (Wycliffite, early version) (Douce MS. 369(2)) (1850) Deeds iv. 13


c1450

Ryght as be twelue ydiotes, sent Austyn seyth—he meneth the apostellis, for thei not lerned were—Thurgh-ovte þe world was sowen ovr feyth.

J. Capgrave, Life of St. Katherine (Arundel MS. 396) (1893) i. l. 288 (Middle English Dictionary)

.......
etymology
< (i) Anglo-Norman ideot, ideote, idyot, ydeot, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle French idiote, ydiote, Anglo-Norman and Middle French idiot, ydiot, ydeote (French idiot) (noun) uneducated, ignorant person (1164), stupid person, mentally impaired person (c1374), (adjective) ignorant, uneducated (c1224), foolish, stupid, incapable of reasoning (c1300), (of behaviour, appearance, etc., of a person) characteristic of an idiot or idiocy (1612),

and its etymons (ii) classical Latin idiōta (in post-classical Latin also ideota, ydeota, ydiota, etc.) ordinary person, layman, amateur, private individual, in post-classical Latin also recent convert (Vulgate), ignorant, uneducated person (early 3rd cent. in Tertullian), professional fool or jester (12th cent. in a British source), stupid person, mentally impaired person (from 13th cent. in British sources),

and (iii) ancient Greek ἰδιώτης private person, person without professional knowledge, layman, ignorant, ill-informed person, in Hellenistic Greek also common man, plebeian < ἴδιος private, own, peculiar (see idio- comb. form) + ‑ώτης ‑ote suffix.

Compare Catalan idiota (15th cent.), Spanish idiota (a1450; early 14th cent. as ydiota), Portuguese idiota (first half of the 16th cent.; 15th cent. as yndiota), Italian idiota (a1306 in sense ‘uneducated person’, a1388 in sense ‘stupid person’). The Latin word was also borrowed into other Germanic languages; compare e.g. Middle Dutch ydioot not fully developed person (c1330; Dutch idioot stupid person (1562 as †idioet)), Middle Low German īdeōt, īdiōt, German Idiot (early 16th cent. in sense ‘uneducated, ignorant person’, 18th cent. in sense ‘bungler’, 19th cent. in sense ‘stupid person, person with an intellectual disability’ (which is now the usual
Summary
Of multiple origins. Partly a borrowing from French. Partly a borrowing from Latin. Partly a borrowing from Greek.
Etymons: French idiot; Latin idiōta; Greek ἰδιώτης.
< (i) Anglo-Norman ideot, ideote, idyot, ydeot, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle French idiote, ydiote, Anglo-Norman and Middle French idiot, ydiot, ydeote (French idiot) (noun) uneducated, ignorant person (1164), stupid person, mentally impaired person (c1374), (adjective) ignorant, uneducated (c1224), foolish, stupid, incapable of reasoning (c1300), (of behaviour, appearance, etc., of a person) characteristic of an idiot or idiocy (1612),

and its etymons (ii) classical Latin idiōta (in post-classical Latin also ideota, ydeota, ydiota, etc.) ordinary person, layman, amateur, private individual, in post-classical Latin also recent convert (Vulgate), ignorant, uneducated person (early 3rd cent. in Tertullian), professional fool or jester (12th cent. in a British source), stupid person, mentally impaired person (from 13th cent. in British sources),
and (iii) ancient Greek ἰδιώτης private person, person without professional knowledge, layman, ignorant, ill-informed person, in Hellenistic Greek also common man, plebeian < ἴδιος private, own, peculiar (see idio- comb. form) + ‑ώτης ‑ote suffix.

Compare Catalan idiota (15th cent.), Spanish idiota (a1450; early 14th cent. as ydiota), Portuguese idiota (first half of the 16th cent.; 15th cent. as yndiota), Italian idiota (a1306 in sense ‘uneducated person’, a1388 in sense ‘stupid person’). The Latin word was also borrowed into other Germanic languages; compare e.g. Middle Dutch ydioot not fully developed person (c1330; Dutch idioot stupid person (1562 as †idioet)), Middle Low German īdeōt, īdiōt, German Idiot (early 16th cent. in sense ‘uneducated, ignorant person’, 18th cent. in sense ‘bungler’, 19th cent. in sense ‘stupid person, person with an intellectual disability’ (which is now the usual sense, and is probably after English)), Swedish idiot (early 17th cent.).

Compare idiota n., a later independent borrowing of the Latin noun.
....
User avatar
Baley
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:45 am

Re: While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Post by Baley »

The Wiktionary page for the original Greek ἰδιώτης:

Etymology
From ἴδιος (ídios, “one's own, private”) +‎ -ώτης (-ṓtēs).

Noun
1 a private person, one not engaged in public affairs
1 a private soldier, as opposed to a general
2 (adjectival use) private, homely
3 commoner, plebeian
4 uneducated person, layman, amateur
5 one who is not in the know, an outsider
6 an ignorant person, idiot
7 one who is awkward, clumsy
8 (in the plural) one's countrymen
User avatar
DCHindley
Posts: 3412
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:53 am
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Post by DCHindley »

Sounds a little like the kind of ribald stories in The Canterbury Tales.

DCH
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2818
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: While She Sat on Her Ass, She Broke Wind v’s She ‘Dismounting a Donkey’!

Post by andrewcriddle »

Judges 1:14 uses a Hebrew word otherwise found only in Judges 4:21. We basically don't know what the word means.

Andrew Criddle
Post Reply