I decided to start a different Thread. I would have Posted after Ben, again, and possibly ruined his fine thoughts or deprecated a fine Thread on Zoroastrianism. There is a point that needs to be made, however. I hope that it will not be a single Post Thread. We'll see.
I believe that the Passages in Matthew and Luke have been heavily breathed on, rewriting a small Passage where "Vulture" was meant and "Eagle" rewritten in its place. Luke brings out the idea. If this sentence/verse was important in the early versions, it appears to have been inserted into a larger Tableau for effect. Single (or, only a few...) verse entries are found in Luke (See: Luke 19: 39 - 40). "Is Luke hiding or promoting?" With Matthew, "Hiding" is most likely the answer. See also:
Luke 17: 2 (RSV):
[2] It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.
This is a Herod story. The surrounding verses in Luke for the Passage in question are multi-focused:
Luke 17: 11 - 19 (RSV):
[11] On the way to Jerusalem he was passing along between Sama'ria and Galilee.
[12] And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers, who stood at a distance
[13] and lifted up their voices and said, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us."
[14] When he saw them he said to them, "Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they went they were cleansed.
[15] Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice;
[16] and he fell on his face at Jesus' feet, giving him thanks. Now he was a Samaritan.
[17] Then said Jesus, "Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine?
[18] Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?"
[19] And he said to him, "Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well."
There are other Passages with this motif: "The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years". The "Paralyzed Man Let in through the Roof". In fact, the Paralyzed Man carries an important parallel verse: Luke 5: 20: "And when he saw their faith he said, "Man, your sins are forgiven you."
Note: Verse 14: "When he saw them he said to them, "Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they went they were cleansed."
This apparently made it through the Transvaluation. It gets a band-aid fix later but indicates (probable) Historical measures.
The Purpose of these Passages is Historical. The "Woman Bent..." is a Herod Story. Herod opens the Temple after finishing the Cloisters on the anniversary of his ascension. You celebrate the Temple and worship Herod on the same day. The "Millstone around the Neck" is a Herod story. We should expect to find other Stories illustrating this in Luke.
What surrounds the Vulture/Eagle?
Luke 17: 19 - 20 (RSV):
[20] Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
[21] nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!' or `There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."
Here is classic indirection. The "Pharisees" ask "WHEN". They know as well as the Priests that the "Realm of Heaven" (as per Matthew) is a Real Physical Place. This is a continuation of "Destroy this Temple and I will rebuild in three days!!!" A TENT could house the "Realm of Heaven" and would have, had the Coup against the Herodians and Romans succeeded. "WHEN..." is the wrong idea. If the Pharisees expected a new building, they were doubly stupid. The Priesthood looks back in time to the more perfect worship. A Tent would have been sufficient.
Luke 17: 31:
[31] On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
Compare for a moment with Mark:
Mark 13: 14 - 21 (RSV):
[14] "But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
[15] let him who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything away;
[16] and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle.
[17] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
[18] Pray that it may not happen in winter.
[19] For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be.
[20] And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
[21] And then if any one says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or `Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
Mark's version warns of the Tribulation, as a Sign, which has already occurred. It is a Jannaeus Story, telling of his return to Jerusalem and the crucifying of the 800 Pharisees while slitting the throats of their wives and children in front of them. The Tribulation is the Story of Jannaeus and his troops almost starving and dying of heat after the defeat at the hands of Demetrius Eucerus, the Greek General (Let the reader note this...).
The Lukan Passage prefaces "Eagle/Vulture" with a different Set of Warnings. Noah "and likewise" with Lot. (Note: "Lot's Wife" may be considered an Idiom: "She was turned into a 'Pillar of Salt'" => "She was AWESTRUCK". If True, the idiomatic idea is lost. (See Aramaic viewpoints here.))
This, therefore is a REWRITE of Intention on Luke's part.
Mark 13: 14, 37 (RSV):
[14] "But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
***
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."
Luke is aware of the Story as seen in Luke 17: 31 (RSV):
[29] but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all --
[30] so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed.
[31] On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
Something terrible will happen on a day when least expected. Mark has the Story. His "Hiding" is less intrusive. You may discover what will happen: If you do, grab your coat and GET OUT! Luke frames the Passage differently. Something BAD will happen but the Warning was given in the days of Noah and Lot.
If possible to discern "Eagle" or "Vulture" over 2000 years and several languages, I would vote "Body" as a generalized term and therefore "Eagle". Luke is writing from a later POV. The Transvaluation is carved in stone at this point. "But...why 'Eagle' at all...?"
I'm gonna look at Matthew and see if there is a different - and earlier - meaning.
Thanx, all.
CW
"Vulture" or "Eagle"? An alternative Reading
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Charles Wilson
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"Vulture" or "Eagle"? An alternative Reading
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: "Vulture" or "Eagle"? An alternative Reading
Hello everyone --
After the overwhelming response to the first Post on "Eagle/Vulture", I almost dropped the entire Analysis. However..."Continuing...":
Matthew 24: 15 - 28 (RSV):
[15] "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
[16] then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
[17] let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house;
[18] and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle.
[19] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
[20] Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
[22] And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
[23] Then if any one says to you, `Lo, here is the Christ!' or `There he is!' do not believe it.
[24] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[25] Lo, I have told you beforehand.
[26] So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
[27] For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
[28] Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The important point to be seen here is that Luke places the warning in the OT going back to Lot:
Luke 17: 29 - 31 (RSV):
[29] but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all --
[30] so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed.
[31] On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
***
[32] Remember Lot's wife.
***
[37] And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Again, the note: Lot's Wife was not literally turned into a Pillar of Salt. There are those Aramaicists who see this as an Idiom: "She was awestruck". Note also that we are being led down a Garden Path: "Who, What, When,Where, Why"? This time they chose "Where" - "Where, Lord?"
"Ames, Iowa, a city that won't exist for..." No. ""Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Luke is definitely playing word games here. I believe that the Orthodoxy has chimed in at this point. The verse in question was deemed "Very Important". It's Original Meaning is known by the NT Authors. Matthew is still writing to hide meaning of this Original. [The Reference to Daniel ties the Greek General Demetrius to Antiochus Epiphanes but also a very possible profane sacrifice on the Altar at Gerizim that was too much for the Jewish Mercs to take.] Luke's Transvaluation takes the Concealment one step further: "Let's tie the Event to something that bears no Original Relationship to the Known Event".
Matthew 24: 15 opens the Original Event with the Reference to the "Desolating Sacrilege". For around 10 years or more, I have attempted to show that this refers to the Greek General Demetrius Eucerus, who defeated Jannaeus at Gerizim, near Shechem. Josephus paints a laughably absurd picture of Demetrius totally destroying Jannaeus and then getting scared and leaving the area. Demetrius' Jewish Mercenaries "Take pity" on Jannaeus and desert Demetrius to "Escape to the mountains..." with Jannaeus.
Greek General Demetrius has committed the Abomination of Desolation at Gerizim. Be able to see this and a whole lot more sets up. Jannaeus appears to want to set up a reunited Greater Israel. His dreams are destroyed.
[19] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Josephus, Ant..., 13, 14, 2:
"...for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes. This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him..."
Jannaeus returns to Jerusalem and on the way Takes-Care-Of-Bidness. Here is where Matthew changes things a bit. Verses 21 - 25 are rearranged for effect. The Tribulation should be placed in the 6 years of Jannaeus and troops "...in the mountains". The heat and lack of food nearly kill them all. When Salome gives the Citadels to the people loyal to Jannaeus, it is repayment for the suffering:
Revelation 7: 13 - 17 (RSV:
[13] Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"
[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his
presence.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
[17] For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
There is a Link between those who survived and "The Lamb" ("Immar" => "Immer").
Matthew represents the Orthodoxy from his time: This is not a Story of Retribution against those who slaughtered God's Elect, either at the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE or the Corrupt Pharisees who thwarted a Legitimate King and High Priest Jannaeus and Salome at every turn. [Edit Note, hopefully for Clarity: Jannaeus and the Temple Slaughter are being rewritten as the story of a savior/god. Matthew is making an early rewrite, Transvaluing the two Judaic Stories. Within a short Time-frame, Luke rewrites the rewrite. Matthew is too obvious. In keeping with the notion that this is all to be found in the OT, Luke posits (cynically) that the warnings could be found in Lot's Story.]
Matthew 23: 13 (RSV):
[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in..."
[Edit Note: Scribes and Pharisees are not spirit beings. They are shutting the Realm of Heaven against MEN. This is a Physical Description of a Physical Event. I believe that it comes from a Document describing the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. This leads to:]
Josephus, Ant..., 13, 13, 5 (in part):
"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related. They also reviled him, as derived from a captive, and so unworthy of his dignity and of sacrificing. At this he was in a rage, and slew of them about six thousand...but as he had joined battle with Obedas, king of the Arabians, and fell into an ambush in the places that were rugged and difficult to be traveled over, he was thrown down into a deep valley, by the multitude of the camels at Gadurn, a village of Gilead, and hardly escaped with his life. From thence he fled to Jerusalem, where, besides his other ill success, the nation insulted him, and he fought against them for six years, and slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them. And when he desired that they would desist from their ill-will to him, they hated him so much the more, on account of what had already happened; and when he had asked them what he ought to do, they all cried out, that he ought to kill himself. They also sent to Demetrius Eucerus, and desired him to make a league of mutual defense with them...."
[Edit Note tied to what is just above: Josephus is telling of Jannaeus and how the Hellenistic Jerusalemites (Pharisees et.al.) viscerally hated him. The Revelation Passage shows that there is a (Political) Link between the Jannaeus Faction and the Priesthood. Jannaeus was deeply respected by the Priesthood and it is up to Immer to finish the Coup (Starting with Bilgah on the Passover Week and ending with Immer on the Weekly Sabbath. Jannaeus and his faction will be Avenged when the Herodians are thrown out and the Temple of God is Rededicated.) Thus, the Priesthood of the House of Eleazar (esp. the Hasmoneans...) will Right the Wrongs of the hundreds of years of Atrocities committed against the Priesthood.
Which leads to "Eagle/Vulture". There is no doubt that with the tie-in with Jannaeus and Immar/Immer, "vulture" would be correct, considering the Death that accumulated around Jannaeus and the later Priesthood. "Immar" and "Immer" are identical words from that time - an automatic word play. As an Imperialistic Statement of Roman Intent, the later Transvaluation gives us "Eagle". The sentence was deemed very much important to the early Authors. The later Authors/Redactors saw that the sentence gave away too much. The meaning had to be changed, not completely successfully.
CW
After the overwhelming response to the first Post on "Eagle/Vulture", I almost dropped the entire Analysis. However..."Continuing...":
Matthew 24: 15 - 28 (RSV):
[15] "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
[16] then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;
[17] let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house;
[18] and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle.
[19] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
[20] Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.
[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
[22] And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
[23] Then if any one says to you, `Lo, here is the Christ!' or `There he is!' do not believe it.
[24] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[25] Lo, I have told you beforehand.
[26] So, if they say to you, `Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, `Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
[27] For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
[28] Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The important point to be seen here is that Luke places the warning in the OT going back to Lot:
Luke 17: 29 - 31 (RSV):
[29] but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all --
[30] so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed.
[31] On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back.
***
[32] Remember Lot's wife.
***
[37] And they said to him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them, "Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Again, the note: Lot's Wife was not literally turned into a Pillar of Salt. There are those Aramaicists who see this as an Idiom: "She was awestruck". Note also that we are being led down a Garden Path: "Who, What, When,Where, Why"? This time they chose "Where" - "Where, Lord?"
"Ames, Iowa, a city that won't exist for..." No. ""Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Luke is definitely playing word games here. I believe that the Orthodoxy has chimed in at this point. The verse in question was deemed "Very Important". It's Original Meaning is known by the NT Authors. Matthew is still writing to hide meaning of this Original. [The Reference to Daniel ties the Greek General Demetrius to Antiochus Epiphanes but also a very possible profane sacrifice on the Altar at Gerizim that was too much for the Jewish Mercs to take.] Luke's Transvaluation takes the Concealment one step further: "Let's tie the Event to something that bears no Original Relationship to the Known Event".
Matthew 24: 15 opens the Original Event with the Reference to the "Desolating Sacrilege". For around 10 years or more, I have attempted to show that this refers to the Greek General Demetrius Eucerus, who defeated Jannaeus at Gerizim, near Shechem. Josephus paints a laughably absurd picture of Demetrius totally destroying Jannaeus and then getting scared and leaving the area. Demetrius' Jewish Mercenaries "Take pity" on Jannaeus and desert Demetrius to "Escape to the mountains..." with Jannaeus.
Greek General Demetrius has committed the Abomination of Desolation at Gerizim. Be able to see this and a whole lot more sets up. Jannaeus appears to want to set up a reunited Greater Israel. His dreams are destroyed.
[19] And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days!
Josephus, Ant..., 13, 14, 2:
"...for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes. This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him..."
Jannaeus returns to Jerusalem and on the way Takes-Care-Of-Bidness. Here is where Matthew changes things a bit. Verses 21 - 25 are rearranged for effect. The Tribulation should be placed in the 6 years of Jannaeus and troops "...in the mountains". The heat and lack of food nearly kill them all. When Salome gives the Citadels to the people loyal to Jannaeus, it is repayment for the suffering:
Revelation 7: 13 - 17 (RSV:
[13] Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"
[14] I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night within his temple;
and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his
presence.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more;
the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
[17] For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water;
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
There is a Link between those who survived and "The Lamb" ("Immar" => "Immer").
Matthew represents the Orthodoxy from his time: This is not a Story of Retribution against those who slaughtered God's Elect, either at the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE or the Corrupt Pharisees who thwarted a Legitimate King and High Priest Jannaeus and Salome at every turn. [Edit Note, hopefully for Clarity: Jannaeus and the Temple Slaughter are being rewritten as the story of a savior/god. Matthew is making an early rewrite, Transvaluing the two Judaic Stories. Within a short Time-frame, Luke rewrites the rewrite. Matthew is too obvious. In keeping with the notion that this is all to be found in the OT, Luke posits (cynically) that the warnings could be found in Lot's Story.]
Matthew 23: 13 (RSV):
[13] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in..."
[Edit Note: Scribes and Pharisees are not spirit beings. They are shutting the Realm of Heaven against MEN. This is a Physical Description of a Physical Event. I believe that it comes from a Document describing the Temple Slaughter of 4 BCE. This leads to:]
Josephus, Ant..., 13, 13, 5 (in part):
"As to Alexander, his own people were seditious against him; for at a festival which was then celebrated, when he stood upon the altar, and was going to sacrifice, the nation rose upon him, and pelted him with citrons [which they then had in their hands, because] the law of the Jews required that at the feast of tabernacles every one should have branches of the palm tree and citron tree; which thing we have elsewhere related. They also reviled him, as derived from a captive, and so unworthy of his dignity and of sacrificing. At this he was in a rage, and slew of them about six thousand...but as he had joined battle with Obedas, king of the Arabians, and fell into an ambush in the places that were rugged and difficult to be traveled over, he was thrown down into a deep valley, by the multitude of the camels at Gadurn, a village of Gilead, and hardly escaped with his life. From thence he fled to Jerusalem, where, besides his other ill success, the nation insulted him, and he fought against them for six years, and slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them. And when he desired that they would desist from their ill-will to him, they hated him so much the more, on account of what had already happened; and when he had asked them what he ought to do, they all cried out, that he ought to kill himself. They also sent to Demetrius Eucerus, and desired him to make a league of mutual defense with them...."
[Edit Note tied to what is just above: Josephus is telling of Jannaeus and how the Hellenistic Jerusalemites (Pharisees et.al.) viscerally hated him. The Revelation Passage shows that there is a (Political) Link between the Jannaeus Faction and the Priesthood. Jannaeus was deeply respected by the Priesthood and it is up to Immer to finish the Coup (Starting with Bilgah on the Passover Week and ending with Immer on the Weekly Sabbath. Jannaeus and his faction will be Avenged when the Herodians are thrown out and the Temple of God is Rededicated.) Thus, the Priesthood of the House of Eleazar (esp. the Hasmoneans...) will Right the Wrongs of the hundreds of years of Atrocities committed against the Priesthood.
Which leads to "Eagle/Vulture". There is no doubt that with the tie-in with Jannaeus and Immar/Immer, "vulture" would be correct, considering the Death that accumulated around Jannaeus and the later Priesthood. "Immar" and "Immer" are identical words from that time - an automatic word play. As an Imperialistic Statement of Roman Intent, the later Transvaluation gives us "Eagle". The sentence was deemed very much important to the early Authors. The later Authors/Redactors saw that the sentence gave away too much. The meaning had to be changed, not completely successfully.
CW