J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

[Ben C. Smith]

No, but Antioch, Galilee and Judea have their defenders.

Well, Stuart can speak for himself, but, having heard him on this topic before, I am pretty confident he was referring to Asia Minor.

[Ken Olson]

Yes, Stuart said Asia Minor. I just wanted to clarify that you meant not Syria when you said that. I know many think some of the Pauline epistles and the Johannine literature (Revelation almost certainly) were written in Asia Minor. Matthew and Luke are frequently placed in Antioch (but it would seem difficult to imagine their independence if they both were).

But sorry to distract from the topic of Zebedee/Sabazios.

[Ben C. Smith]

If ' "the sons of Zebedee" [is] its own separate concept ', might not that simply be a standard cult association of Jews from Asia Minor ? Valerius Maximus records the expulsion of Judeans from Rome in 139 B.C. who presented their God as Juppiter Sabazius, and had erected private altars ( for gentile use ) in public places. Bickerman's 'Altars of the Gentiles' essay remains the sanest analysis of this episode, and makes the essential point that, at this time, only people living under Pergamene control could have regarded Zeus Sabazios as a proper title for the supreme god. So you could infer continued use of the term by adherents in the form 'sons of Sabazios/Sabadios/Zebedee'; if, that is, the awkward locution in Matt 20.20 merits such speculation...

Good observation. Thanks:

Valerius Maximus, Memorable Deeds and Sayings (Epitome) 1.3.2: Exemplum 3. Cn. Cornelius Hispalus praetor peregrinus M. Popilio Laenate L. Calpurnio coss. edicto Chaldaeos citra decimum diem abire ex urbe atque Italia iussit, levibus et ineptis ingeniis fallaci siderum interpretatione quaestuosam mendaciis suis caliginem inicientes. idem Iudaeos, qui Sabazi Iouis cultu Romanos inficere mores conati erant, repetere domos suas coegit. / Example 3. Gnaeus Cornelius Hispalus, praetor peregrinus in the year of the consulate of Marcus Popilius Laenas and Lucius Calpurnius, ordered the astrologers by an edict to leave Rome and Italy within ten days, since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies. The same praetor compelled the Jews, who attempted to infect the Roman custom with the cult of Jupiter Sabazius, to return to their homes.

[Ben C. Smith]

Yes, Stuart said Asia Minor. I just wanted to clarify that you meant not Syria when you said that. I know many think some of the Pauline epistles and the Johannine literature (Revelation almost certainly) were written in Asia Minor. Matthew and Luke are frequently placed in Antioch (but it would seem difficult to imagine their independence if they both were).

But sorry to distract from the topic of Zebedee/Sabazios.

No problem. I suspect Matthew was written or edited in Syria. Luke I am less sure about, but would consider Greece or Asia Minor to be strong candidates. Yes to the Johannine materials probably coming from Asia Minor, IMHO.

[Joseph D. L.]

What do we think of this suggestion (and it is no more than that) from J. Rendel Harris (Boanerges, page 12)?


J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee & Sabazios.png


On the one hand, Harris affirms that Zebedee/Zebediah/Zabdi is a good Hebrew name, and it is. On the other, there is that awkward expression twice employed by Matthew:

Matthew 20.20: 20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Jesus with her sons, bowing down and making a request of Him.

Matthew 27.56: 56 Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

This weird way of expressing the matter would be in harmony with the phrase "the sons of Zebedee" being its own separate concept, more than just the sum of its parts, in the same basic way as the phrase "the sons of thunder" is, and probably with the same essential meaning, since Sabazios can be thought of as a Phrygian Zeus, and is often even referred to as Zeus Sabazios.

Or is this all just a flight of fantasy?

Ben.

I find all of this fascinating. Definitely there is some syncretistic confuddary taking place, especially with Greek speaking Jews, who would easily recognize that θεός is appropriately understood as Zeus, and Jews living in the Anatolian region where the Sabazios cult was more wide spread as Zeus-Sabazios. This is easily proved with the Naassanes, who adopted hymns originally composed for Attis, and the serpent was an important symbol for the Sabazios cult. There are already historians and writers from the first centuries bc and ad that say that Jews unambiguously worshiped Sabazios and that there festivals were no different than those of Bacchus, and 2 Maccabees is proof that this wasn't just the Gentiles conflating YHWH with their local gods; and the archaeological record shows that YHWH was undeniably syncretized with other gods. There's even some etymological trickery with the name "Jew" and that it probably derived from the same source as Zeus or Djeus. What were Jews called before 200 bc? Or even before Ezra? I've even heard one crazy psychopath say Jerusalem is actually Greek and means City of Zeus. Anyway, YHWH is a Dr. Frankenstein's God. No surprise there.

Interestingly enough, the association with the eagle and Zeus is a point I hadn't even considered for my own theories. For a few years I've thought that "Lukuas" is just a corruption of Lucius, itself a derivative of lux, or Light. That he is called Lumpis and Lumbas by later medieval historians proves that there is no fixed name for him, and Cassius Dio calls him Andraes, or The Man, an obvious messianic title. But from the wiki, one has argued that he is actually L'yaqish, Hebrew for the bird-catcher, a name he was given for defeating Roman armies, but I wounder if there could be some connection between that and the eagle of Zeus?

[Joseph D. L.]

So the Brothers' Zebedee being the Sons of Thunder makes a lot of sense if thunder is understood to be both the light and voice/logos of God. Of course, I think the Super Zebedee Bros. were Julian Alexander and Pappus, as well as the two witnesses from Revelation 11, but what do I know?

[Secret Alias]

I think Plutarch somewhere identifies the god of the Jews as Sabazios.

[Secret Alias]

Plutarch (Symp. iv. 6) maintains that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius.

[Ben C. Smith]

Plutarch (Symp. iv. 6) maintains that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius.

Thank you. For posterity:

Plutarch, Quaestiones Convivales 5.1-6.2:

5.1 After these things were spoken, and some in the company were minded to say something in defence of the contrary opinion, Callistratus interrupted their discourse and said: Sirs, what do you think of that which was spoken against the Jews [πρὸς τοὺς Ἰουδαίους], that they abstain from the most lawful flesh? Very well said, quoth Polycrates, for that is a thing I very much question, whether it was that the Jews abstained from swine's flesh because they conferred divine honor upon that creature, or because they had a natural aversion to it. For whatever we find in their own writings seems to be altogether fabulous, except they have some more solid reasons which they have no mind to discover.

2 Hence it is, says Callistratus, that I am of an opinion that this nation has that creature in some veneration; and though it be granted that the hog is an ugly and filthy creature, yet it is not quite so vile nor naturally stupid as a beetle, griffin, crocodile, or cat, most of which are worshipped as the most sacred things by some priests amongst the Egyptians. But the reason why the hog is had in so much honor and veneration amongst them is, because, as the report goes, that creature breaking up the earth with its snout showed the way to tillage, and taught them how to use the ploughshare, which instrument for that very reason, as some say, was called hynis from ὗς, a swine. Now the Egyptians inhabiting a country situated low, and whose soil is naturally soft, have no need of the plough; but after the river Nile hath retired from the grounds it overflowed, they presently let all their hogs into the fields, and they with their feet and snouts break up the ground, and cover the sown seed. Nor ought this to seem strange to any one, that there are in the world those who abstain from swine's flesh upon such an account as this; when it is evident that among barbarous nations there are other animals had in greater honor and veneration for lesser, if not altogether ridiculous, reasons. For the field-mouse only for its blindness was worshipped as a God among the Egyptians, because they were of an opinion that darkness was before light, and that the latter had its birth from mice about the fifth generation at the new moon; and moreover that the liver of this creature diminishes in the wane of the moon. But they consecrate the lion to the sun, because the lioness alone, of all clawed quadrupeds, brings forth her young with their eyesight; for they sleep a moment, and when they are asleep their eyes sparkle. Besides, they place gaping lions' heads for the spouts of their fountains, because Nilus overflows the Egyptian fields when the sign is Leo: they give it out that their bird ibis, as soon as hatched, weighs two drachms, which are of the same weight with the heart of a new-born infant; and that its legs being spread with the bill make an exact equilateral triangle. And yet who can find fault with the Egyptians for these trifles, when it is left upon record that the Pythagoreans worshipped a white cock, and of sea creatures abstained especially from the mullet and urtic. The Magi that descended from Zoroaster adored the land hedgehog above other creatures, but had a deadly spite against water-rats, and thought that man was dear in the eyes of the Gods who destroyed most of them. But I should think that if the Jews had such an antipathy against a hog, they would kill it as the magicians do mice; when, on the contrary, they are by their religion as much prohibited to kill as to eat it. And perhaps there may be some reason given for this; for as the ass is worshipped by them as the first discoverer of fountains, so perhaps the hog may be had in like veneration, which first taught them to sow and plough. Nay, some say that the Jews also abstain from hares, as abominable and unclean.

3 They have reason for that, said Lamprias, because a hare is so like an ass which they detest. [The Greek text here is badly mutilated.] For in its color, ears, and the sparkling of its eyes, it is so like an ass, that I do not know any little creature that represents a great one so much as a hare doth an ass; unless in this likewise they imitate the Egyptians, and suppose that there is something of divinity in the swiftness of this creature, as also in its quickness of sense; for the eyes of hares are so unwearied that they sleep with them open. Besides they seem to excel all other creatures in quickness of hearing; whence it was that the Egyptians painted the ear of a hare amongst their other hieroglyphics, as an emblem of hearing. But the Jews do hate swine's flesh, because all the barbarians are naturally fearful of a scab and leprosy, which they presume comes by eating such kind of flesh. For we may observe that all pigs under the belly are overspread with a leprosy and scab; which may be supposed to proceed from an ill disposition of body and corruption within, which breaks out through the skin. Besides, swine's feeding is commonly so nasty and filthy, that it must of necessity cause corruptions and vicious humors; for, setting aside those creatures that are bred from and live upon dung, there is no other creature that takes so much delight to wallow in the mire, and in other unclean and stinking places. Hogs' eyes are said to be so flattened and fixed upon the ground, that they see nothing above them, nor ever look up to the sky, except when forced upon their back they turn their eyes to the sun against nature. Therefore this creature, at other times most clamorous, when laid upon his back, is still, as astonished at the unusual sight of the heavens; while the greatness of the fear he is in (as it is supposed) is the cause of his silence. And if it be lawful to intermix our discourse with fables, it is said that Adonis was slain by a boar. Now Adonis is supposed to be the same with Bacchus; and there are a great many rites in both their sacrifices which confirm this opinion. Others will have Adonis to be Bacchus's paramour; and Phanocles an amorous love-poet writes thus, "Bacchus on hills the fair Adonis saw, and ravished him, and reaped a wondrous joy."

6.1 Here Symmachus, greatly wondering at what was spoken, says: What, Lamprias, will you permit our tutelar God, called Evius, the inciter of women, famous for the honors he has conferred upon him by madmen, to be inscribed and enrolled in the mysteries of the Jews [τοῖς Ἑβραίων ἀπορρήτοις, literally, "the secrets of the Hebrews"]? Or is there any solid reason that can be given to prove Adonis to be the same with Bacchus? Here Moeragenes interposing, said: Do not be so fierce upon him, for I who am an Athenian answer you, and tell you, in short, that these two are the very same. And no man is able or fit to hear the chief confirmation of this truth, but those amongst us who are initiated and skilled in the triennial παντέλεια, or great mysteries of the God. But what no religion forbids to speak of among friends, especially over wine, the gift of Bacchus, I am ready at the command of these gentlemen to disclose.

2 When all the company requested and earnestly begged it of him; first of all (says he), the time and manner of their greatest and most holy solemnity is exactly agreeable to the holy rites of Bacchus [τῆς μεγίστης καὶ τελειοτάτης ἑορτῆς παρ᾽ αὐτοῖς ὁ καιρός ἐστι καὶ ὁ τρόπος Διονύσῳ προσήκων]; for that which they call the Fast they celebrate in the midst of the vintage, furnishing their tables with all sorts of fruits, while they sit under tabernacles made of vines and ivy; and the day which immediately goes before this they call the day of Tabernacles. Within a few days after they celebrate another feast, not darkly but openly, dedicated to Bacchus, for they have a feast amongst them called Kradephoria, from carrying palm-trees, and Thyrsophoria, when they enter into the temple carrying thyrsi. What they do within I know not; but it is very probable that they perform the rites of Bacchus. First they have little trumpets, such as the Grecians used to have at their Bacchanalia to call upon their Gods withal. Others go before them playing upon harps, which they call Levites, whether so named from Lusius or Evius,—either word agrees with Bacchus. And I suppose that their Sabbaths have some relation to Bacchus; for even at this day many call the Bacchi by the name of Sabbi, and they make use of that word at the celebration of Bacchus's orgies [οἶμαι δὲ καὶ τὴν τῶν σαββάτων ἑορτὴν μὴ παντάπασιν ἀπροσδιόνυσον εἶναι· Σάβους γὰρ καὶ νῦν ἔτι πολλοὶ τοὺς Βάκχους καλοῦσι καὶ ταύτην ἀφιᾶσι τὴν φωνὴν ὅταν ὀργιάζωσι τῷ θεῷ]. And this may be made appear out of Demosthenes and Menander. Nor would it be absurd, were any one to say that the name Sabbath was imposed upon this feast from the agitation and excitement [σόβησις] which the priests of Bacchus indulged in. The Jews themselves testify no less; for when they keep the Sabbath, they invite one another to drink till they are drunk; or if they chance to be hindered by some more weighty business, it is the fashion at least to taste the wine. Some perhaps may surmise that these are mere conjectures. But there are other arguments which will clearly evince the truth of what I assert. The first may be drawn from their High-priest, who on holidays enters their temple with his mitre on, arrayed in a skin of a hind embroidered with gold, wearing buskins, and a coat hanging down to his ankles; besides, he has a great many little bells hanging at his garment which make a noise as he walks the streets. So in the nightly ceremonies of Bacchus (as the fashion is amongst us), they make use of musical instruments, and call the God's nurses χαλκοδρυσται. High up on the wall of their temple is a representation of the thyrsus and timbrels, which surely can belong to no other God than Bacchus. Moreover they are forbidden the use of honey in their sacrifices, because they suppose that a mixture of honey corrupts and deads the wine. And honey was used for sacrificing in former days, and with it the ancients were wont to make themselves drunk, before the vine was known. And at this day barbarous people who want wine drink metheglin, allaying the sweetness of the honey by bitter roots, much of the taste of our wine. The Greeks offered to their Gods these sober offerings or honey-offerings, as they called them, because that honey was of a nature quite contrary to wine. But this is no inconsiderable argument that Bacchus was worshipped by the Jews, in that, amongst other kinds of punishment, that was most remarkably odious by which malefactors were forbid the use of wine for so long a time as the judge was pleased to prescribe. Those thus punished..... [The remainder of the Fourth Book is wanting.]

[Giuseppe]

Thank you very much for the solution of this great enigma (Zebedee).

It seems also that Typhon/Seth was confused with Iao Abraxas Sabaoth and with Sabazios in virtue of their appearance in the form on an ass (Tacitus wrote that the Jews adored an ass).