J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Post by Joseph D. L. »

davidmartin wrote: Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:26 pm

This is syncretism going to and not from the greco/roman pantheon
And such syncretism did happen. I remember DN Boswell saying that Euripides's play, The Bacchae, actually shows hints at being influenced by Jewish myths, and not so much the other way around. Of course in a world where culture's cross pollinated such influences would be expected. But to assume that the Jews themselves weren't influenced by their neighbors...

Well, to borrow Giuseppe's own rhetoric, anyone who denies they weren't is an idiot.

Thus it is recorded that among the Arians Zathraustes claimed that the Good Spirit gave him his laws, among the people known as the Getae who represent themselves to be immortal Zalmoxis asserted the same of their common goddess Hestia, and among the Jews Moyses referred his laws to the god who is invoked as Iao.

Diodorus, Library of History


Be merciful to me, O Zeus-Iao-Zen-Helios

/

I call upon you, Master of the gods, high-thundering Zeus, sovereign Zeus, ADŌNAI, lord IAŌ, OYĒE.

/

Lord of the {sunrise}, risen fury,
Titan, I call {you}, flaming messenger
Of Zeus, divine IAO, and you, too,
Who rule the Heaven's realm, {RAPHAEL}

Various Greek Magical Texts


Gnaeus Cornelius Hispalus, praetor peregrinus in the year of the consulate of Marcus Popilius Laenas and Lucius Calpurnius, ordered the astrologers by an edict to leave Rome and Italy within ten days, since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies. The same praetor compelled the Jews, who attempted to infect the Roman custom with the cult of Jupiter Sabazius, to return to their homes.

Valerius Maximus


Not long after this the king sent an Athenian senator* to force the Jews to abandon the laws of their ancestors and live no longer by the laws of God, also to profane the temple in Jerusalem and dedicate it to Olympian Zeus,* and the one on Mount Gerizim to Zeus the Host to Strangers, as the local inhabitants were wont to be. This was a harsh and utterly intolerable evil. The Gentiles filled the temple with debauchery and revelry; they amused themselves with prostitutes and had intercourse with women even in the sacred courts. They also brought forbidden things into the temple, so that the altar was covered with abominable offerings prohibited by the laws. No one could keep the sabbath or celebrate the traditional feasts, nor even admit to being a Jew. Moreover, at the monthly celebration of the king’s birthday the Jews, from bitter necessity, had to partake of the sacrifices, and when the festival of Dionysus* was celebrated, they were compelled to march in his procession, wearing wreaths of ivy. Following upon a vote of the citizens of Ptolemais, a decree was issued ordering the neighboring Greek cities to adopt the same measures, obliging the Jews to partake of the sacrifices and putting to death those who would not consent to adopt the customs of the Greeks. It was obvious, therefore, that disaster had come upon them.

2 Maccabees, ch. 6


The time and character of the greatest, most sacred holiday of the Jews clearly befit Dionysus. When they celebrate their so-called Fast, at the height of the vintage, they set out tables of all sorts of fruit under tents and huts plaited for the most part of vines and ivy. They call the first of the two days Tabernacles. A few days later they celebrate another festival, this time identified with Bacchus not through obscure hints, but plainly called by his name, a festival that is of a sort of ‘Procession of Branches’ or ‘Thyrsus Procession,’ in which they enter the temple each carrying a thyrsus. What they do after entering we do not know, but it is probable that the rite is a Bacchic revelry, for in fact they use little trumpets to invoke their god as do the Argives at their Dionysia. Others of them advance playing harps. … I believe that even the feast of the Sabbath is not completely unrelated to Dionysus. Many even now call the Bacchants Sabi and utter that cry when celebrating the god. Testimony to this can be found in Demosthenes and Menander … they keep the Sabbath by inviting each other to drink and to enjoy wine; when more important business interferes with this custom, they regularly take at least a sip of neat wine. Now thus far one might call the argument only probable, but the opposition is quite demolished, in the first place by the High Priest, who leads the procession at their festival wearing a mitre and clad in a gold-embroidered fawnskin, a robe reaching to the ankles, and ringing below him as he walks. All this corresponds to our custom. In the second place, they also have noise as an element in their nocturnal festivals, and call the nurses of the god ‘bronze rattlers’. The carved thyrsus in the relief on the pediment of the Temple and the drums (provide other parallels). All this surely befits (they might say) no divinity but Dionysus.

Plutarch, Moralia


It is said that the Jews were originally exiles from the island of Crete who settled in the farthest parts of Libya at the time when Saturn had been deposed and expelled by Jove. An argument in favour of this is derived from the name: there is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida, and hence the inhabitants were called the Idaei, which was later lengthened into the barbarous form Iudaei. Some hold that in the reign of Isis the superfluous population of Egypt, under the leadership of Hierosolymus and Iuda, discharged itself on the neighbouring lands; many others think that they were an Egyptian stock, which in the reign of Cepheus was forced to migrate by fear and hatred. Still others report that they were Assyrian refugees, a landless people, who first got control of a part of Egypt, then later they had their own cities and lived in the Hebrew territory and the nearer parts of Syria. Still others say that the Jews are of illustrious origin, being the Solymi, a people celebrated in Homer's poems,5 who founded a city and gave it the name Hierosolyma, formed from their own.

Most authors agree that once during a plague in Egypt which caused bodily disfigurement, King Bocchoris6 approached the oracle of Ammon and asked for a remedy, whereupon he was told to purge his kingdom and to transport this race into other lands, since it was hateful to the gods. So the Hebrews were searched out and gathered together; then, being abandoned in the desert, while all others lay idle and weeping, one only of the exiles, Moses by name, warned them not to hope for help from gods or men, for they were deserted by both, but to trust to themselves, regarding as a guide sent from heaven the one whose assistance should first give them escape from their present distress. They agreed, and then set out on their journey in utter ignorance, but trusting to chance. Nothing caused them so much distress as scarcity of water, and in fact they had already fallen exhausted over the plain nigh unto death, when a herd of wild asses moved from their pasturage to a rock that was shaded by a grove of trees. Moses followed them, and, conjecturing the truth from the grassy ground, discovered abundant streams of water. This relieved them, and they then marched six days continuously, and on the seventh seized a country, expelling the former inhabitants; there they founded a city and dedicated a temple. To establish his influence over this people for all time, Moses introduced new religious practices, quite opposed to those of all other religions. The Jews regard as profane all that we hold sacred; on the other hand, they permit all that we abhor. They dedicated, in a shrine, a statue of that creature whose guidance enabled them to put an end to their wandering and thirst,9 sacrificing a ram, apparently in derision of Ammon. They likewise offer the ox, because the Egyptians worship Apis. They abstain from pork, in recollection of a plague, for the scab to which this animal is subject once afflicted them. By frequent fasts even now they bear witness to the long hunger with which they were once distressed, and the unleavened Jewish bread is still employed in memory of the haste with which they seized the grain.11 They say that they first chose to rest on the seventh day because that day ended their toils; but after a time they were led by the charms of indolence to give over the seventh year as well to inactivity.12 Others say that this is done in honour of Saturn, whether it be that the primitive elements of their religion were given by the Idaeans, who, according to tradition, were expelled with Saturn and became the founders of the Jewish race, or is due to the fact that, of the seven planets that rule the fortunes of mankind, Saturn moves in the highest orbit and has the greatest potency; and that many of the heavenly bodies traverse their paths and courses in multiples of seven.

Whatever their origin, these rites are maintained by their antiquity: the other customs of the Jews are base and abominable, and owe their persistence to their depravity. For the worst rascals among other peoples,15 renouncing their ancestral religions, always kept sending tribute and contributions to Jerusalem, thereby increasing the wealth of the Jews; again, the Jews are extremely loyal toward one another, and always ready to show compassion, but toward every other people they feel only hate and enmity. They sit apart at meals, and they sleep apart, and although as a race, they are prone to lust, they abstain from intercourse with foreign women; yet among themselves nothing is unlawful. They adopted circumcision to distinguish themselves from other peoples by this difference. Those who are converted to their ways follow the same practice, and the earliest lesson they receive is to despise the gods, to disown their country, and to regard their parents, children, and brothers as of little account. However, they take thought to increase their numbers; for they regard it as a crime to kill any late-born child,16 and they believe that the souls of those who are killed in battle or by the executioner are immortal: hence comes their passion for begetting children, and their scorn of death. They bury the body rather than burn it, thus following the Egyptians' custom; they likewise bestow the same care on the dead, and hold the same belief about the world below; but their ideas of heavenly things are quite the opposite. The Egyptians worship many animals and monstrous images; the Jews conceive of one god only, and that with the mind alone: they regard as impious those who make from perishable materials representations of gods in man's image; that supreme and eternal being is to them incapable of representation and without end. Therefore they set up no statues in their cities, still less in their temples; this flattery is not paid their kings, nor this honour given to the Caesars. But since their priests used to chant to the accompaniment of pipes and cymbals and to wear garlands of ivy, and because a golden vine was found in their temple, some have thought that they were devotees of Father Liber, the conqueror of the East, in spite of the incongruity of their customs. For Liber established festive rites of a joyous nature, while the ways of the Jews are preposterous and mean.

Tacitus, Histories


In the hundred and thirty and seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks, in those days went there out wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow. So this device pleased them well. Then certain of the people were so forward herein, that they went to the king, who gave them licence to do after the ordinances of the heathen: Whereupon they built a place of exercise according to the customs of the heathen: And made themselves uncircumcised, and forsook the holy covenant, and joined themselves to the heathen, and were sold to do mischief. …

Not long after this the king sent an old man of Athens to compel the Jews to depart from the laws of their fathers, and not to live after the laws of God: And to pollute also the temple, and to call it the temple of Jupiter Olympius; and that in Garizim, of Jupiter the Defender of strangers, as they did desire that dwelt in the place. …

And when the feast of Dionysus was kept, they were compelled to go in procession to Dionysus, carrying ivy. Moreover there went out a decree to the neighbour cities of the heathen, by the suggestion of Ptolemee, against them, that they should observe the same fashions, and be partakers of their sacrifices. …

Those who spoke against it should be taken by force and put to death; and that those who were registered should even be branded on their bodies with an ivy-leaf, the emblem of Dionysus, and be reduced to their former limited status. But that he might not appear an enemy to all, he added, But if any of them prefer to join those who are initiated into the mysteries, they shall have equal rights with the citizens of Alexandria. Some obviously hating the price paid for the religion of their city readily gave themselves up, expecting to gain great glory from their association with the king.

Epitome of Jason of Cyrene


May Horus answer us in our troubles; may Adonai answer us in troubles. O bowman in heaven, Sahar, shine forth; send your emissary from the temple of Arash, and from Zephon may Horus help us. May Horus grant us what is in our hearts! May the lord grant us what is in our hearts. All (our) plans may Horus fulfill. May Horus fulfill – may Adonai not fall short in satisfying – every request of our hearts. Some with the bow, some with the spear; behold as for us – lord god Horus-Yaho, our bull, is with us. May El of Bethel answer us on the morrow. May Baal, lord of heaven, bless you; to your pious ones, your blessings.

Aramaic Amherst Papyrus 63 (4th cen. BCE)

So you're one hundred percent wrong. Jews did indeed conflate YHWH with other gods; their festivals emulated the festivals of these gentile gods, and their myths about YHWH were similar to other myths about Zeus, Apollo, Dionysus and Marduk.

Give it up. You're done.
What i'm doubting is that the original, first Christians were anything to do with worshipping Zeus with the syncretism going the other way.
You mean like how Paul quotes two gentile poets writing about Zeus and says that he is preaching the exact same thing as them?

So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for
“‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,“‘For we are indeed his offspring.' Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Epimenides' Cretica:

They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
For in you we live and move and have our being

Zeus has a tomb made for him, yet he isn't dead? Resurrection much?

Aratus's Phenomena:

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
For we are indeed his offspring ...

We're all Zeus's offspring? Sounds like we're all "Sons of God".
Especially not Zeus, that men sacrificed chickens thinking he'd make their phallus grow longer :facepalm:
And YHWH granted barren women fertility. What's your point?

I can see why Giuseppe appeals to you. You're about as smart as he is.
davidmartin
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Post by davidmartin »

LOL, OK Joseph DL I will respond i've no axe to grind with you
You're just assuming you know what i'm talking about!

Sure you have proven the mixing of cultures and syncretism you speak of among Jews did happen
I knew about some of this anyway
Its also obvious from Philo and Josephus (and Paul) who adopt Greek rhetoric style and philosophy (Philo)

So, yes the greco-roman influence was there and i'm not denying it
We're not in disagreement (yet) because you're talking about Jews in general...
I'm onlytalking about the 'original Jewish Christians' or whatever you'd like to call them - and I mean pre-Paul specifically
So yeah, i'm talking about a narrow part of the spectrum and your talking about the whole thing

My only point is to suggest the core of Christianity lies in Semitic roots, eg what I believe is the earliest surviving Christian writing the Odes of Solomon, expresses itself like some of the older parts of the Tanakh, intentionally. Not quite as archaic as say the song of Deborah but still purely Semitic. No Greek or Roman influence can be detected. But people ignore the Odes because it's so inconvenient to their suppositions

Hell, even the Gospel of Thomas sayings are just a Jesus version of proverbs and lack a ton of later syncretism

All of this is a pain in the ass even today. I have this problem trying to explain to Christians what 'love' is. They immediately and without any thought start yakking on about 'agape' and how its not emotional love. Bullshit, Jesus spoke Greek? The fuck he did. I tell them, how about looking up Ahava and see what the word actually means according to Semitic insight. Its 100% emotional which is obvious looking at in their culture anyway. So syncretism also happens due to translation and language issues as well.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Post by Joseph D. L. »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:42 am
You're just assuming you know what i'm talking about!
I don't care what you're talking about. You said syncretisim was one sided and you are wrong.
Sure you have proven the mixing of cultures and syncretism you speak of among Jews did happen
I knew about some of this anyway
Its also obvious from Philo and Josephus (and Paul) who adopt Greek rhetoric style and philosophy (Philo)

So, yes the greco-roman influence was there and i'm not denying it
We're not in disagreement (yet) because you're talking about Jews in general...
"It depends which direction the syncretism is!
I could accept a Jewish view of God being put onto Zeus's name maybe, but with all the attributes and so on coming from the Jewish side, and no doubt this happened somewhere/time and by Christians too"

This is what you said and you are totally wrong. Syncretism affected Jews just as much as the Greeks and Romans. It was not the one sided influence that you said it was.
I'm onlytalking about the 'original Jewish Christians' or whatever you'd like to call them - and I mean pre-Paul specifically
So yeah, i'm talking about a narrow part of the spectrum and your talking about the whole thing
Cultural influence existed at all levels in the Hellenized world, so even your "original Jewish Christians" would still be influenced by Hellenized philosophy and yes, even myths. There was no escaping it.

And unless you can show me what these "original Jewish Christians" were, what they believed and what texts they used, I'm not interested in your hypothetical reconstructions. I can do that on my own.
My only point is to suggest the core of Christianity lies in Semitic roots, eg what I believe is the earliest surviving Christian writing the Odes of Solomon, expresses itself like some of the older parts of the Tanakh, intentionally. Not quite as archaic as say the song of Deborah but still purely Semitic. No Greek or Roman influence can be detected. But people ignore the Odes because it's so inconvenient to their suppositions
How can you say such a thing when the Gospels present Jesus as living among Romans in a Roman occupied territory and interacting with Romans from books written in Greek? That alone is a Greco-Roman influence on the Jesus story.

There's no such thing as "Semitic roots" because that's not how culture works, even back then.
Hell, even the Gospel of Thomas sayings are just a Jesus version of proverbs and lack a ton of later syncretism
Because the Gospel of Thomas is the end-all, be-all of Christianity right?
All of this is a pain in the ass even today. I have this problem trying to explain to Christians what 'love' is. They immediately and without any thought start yakking on about 'agape' and how its not emotional love. Bullshit, Jesus spoke Greek? The fuck he did. I tell them, how about looking up Ahava and see what the word actually means according to Semitic insight. Its 100% emotional which is obvious looking at in their culture anyway. So syncretism also happens due to translation and language issues as well.
Man I cannot wait for Tenet. I hope it doesn't get delayed again as I've been wanting to see this movie for almost two years now. I think Christopher Nolan is a bit overrated, and I still think his best film is Insomnia, but I'll be damned if he doesn't know how to make an entertaining movie. Tenet seems to be about a special ops tasked with preventing a temporal apocalypse and must navigate through two concurrent time streams to stop it from... already happening... Anyway. Sep 3rd cannot get here fast enough!

Sorry. I'm just so uninterested in what you have to say man. I had to entertain myself.
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

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Cultural influence existed at all levels in the Hellenized world, so even your "original Jewish Christians" would still be influenced by Hellenized philosophy and yes, even myths. There was no escaping it
Traditions get handed down and the dominant culture isn't always able to change them, you make it sound like everyone just rolled over and went with the crowd. Your assumption is no better argued or any more believable than mine.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Post by Joseph D. L. »

davidmartin wrote: Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:11 pm
Cultural influence existed at all levels in the Hellenized world, so even your "original Jewish Christians" would still be influenced by Hellenized philosophy and yes, even myths. There was no escaping it
Traditions get handed down and the dominant culture isn't always able to change them, you make it sound like everyone just rolled over and went with the crowd. Your assumption is no better argued or any more believable than mine.
I didn’t say that at all. I said that influences happened both ways. YOU said influences happened one way, however.

You don’t know anything this do you? No you don’t. So don’t waste my time.
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

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I didn’t say that at all. I said that influences happened both ways. YOU said influences happened one way, however.
You don’t know anything this do you? No you don’t. So don’t waste my time.
Your purposely misrepresent what i say because you don't want a real debate, presumably with anyone - it's weak tea, weak as fish piss

Yes it's one way when one group influences another group using their own familiar language, myths, whatever even if the larger population is influenced both ways. But I thought we were talking about disciples of Jesus you and Ben think might be named after Zeus, as if that small, early group were influenced in this way. The debate isn't over what happens in whole populations

As to hellenistic influences evident in Christianity i've already stated obviously they exist, but if you're talking about actual disciples of Jesus and think the gospels contain any historic information about them then you have to ignore all of that and talk about hypothetical reconstructed original movement itself. If you're a mythicist then you're not gonna accept that premise as those people would never have existed

The only reason i'm replying to this is in the slight hope, however tiny that is you might at least try to see what i'm saying, and at this point i'm not sure i care its probably pointless! It's just to painful to debate with you DL give me Giuseppe any day!
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

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It depends which direction the syncretism is!
I could accept a Jewish view of God being put onto Zeus's name maybe, but with all the attributes and so on coming from the Jewish side, and no doubt this happened somewhere/time and by Christians too
Does that look familiar to you? It should because that's exactly what you said above--that influences were one way, Jews to Greeks, and not the other, Greeks to Jews. In fact you said that we cannot think the dominant culture had the greater influence, when yes we can. That's why "Hellenism" is a thing.

Jesus titty fucking Christ, Paul and Barnabas are even called Hermes and Zeus respectively in Acts of the Apostles. What more do you want?

I'm not interested in debates. And I have nothing to debate with you because you have nothing worth saying. I personally don't give a damn about what you have to say about anything. So you can keep Giuseppe, unless...

You are Giuseppe!

Dun dun DUNNN!
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Post by davidmartin »

I hope that's a soapy tit fuck because otherwise it can sting for a while afterwards. OK dude, you asked for it - no soap..
John ate 'locusts and wild honey' - locusts is anti-Marcionite euhemerism by adorers of yahweh but the wild honey means bee-keeping and wearing of protective suits - in Outer Space. Paul knew this, Galatians viewed correctly as 'Galaxy-ians' shows his battle with Peter took place in mid-air who is none other than Simon Magus - the euhemerised anti-Christ - not a hero to Marcion - he has a body! A priori Marcion's Christ is an anti-euhemerisation of a polemical euhemerising of the original Christ
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Re: J. Rendel Harris on Zebedee and Sabazios.

Post by Joseph D. L. »

OK dude, you asked for it
lol I bursted out laughing when I read this. Imagining you rolling up yours sleeves, ready to give someone a real keyboard thrashing. lol
John ate 'locusts and wild honey' - locusts is anti-Marcionite euhemerism by adorers of yahweh but the wild honey means bee-keeping and wearing of protective suits - in Outer Space. Paul knew this, Galatians viewed correctly as 'Galaxy-ians' shows his battle with Peter took place in mid-air who is none other than Simon Magus - the euhemerised anti-Christ - not a hero to Marcion - he has a body! A priori Marcion's Christ is an anti-euhemerisation of a polemical euhemerising of the original Christ
That'll do, pig. That'll do.
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