Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

[Charles Wilson]

Lazarus is Antinous.
...
Ah well. Who cares, right?

I think most all of us do.
I'm not going to argue against you one way or the other. As long as your Position is Consistent and Complete (Given the Range of your Data), that's all we can expect. Atwill considers the Lunatic in Mark as representing the Seditionists. I believe that when the statement is given that the Lunatic is possessed by "Legion", I believe that the statement means what it states.

Are Atwill and I at each others throats over this? Not at all. I believe that the Original tells the Tale of the War against Rome and the Herodians. The Seditionists, per Atwill are described by the Transvalued version. No problem. A lot of people see Hadrian, Bar Kochba and others in the Text.

We may be at the limits of what we can see by playing Match 'em Up. "Ah well, who cares, right?"

When Antinous died in Egypt he was immediately identified with Osiris, meaning he underwent the same ritualistic process as Osiris. (Yes, even if he died in the Nile, as those who died in the Nile were believed to be as ritualistically prepared for the afterlife as those who were mummified.)

Proactive Match 'em Up

* Lazarus has two sisters who mourn for him / Osiris has two sisters who mourn him.

* Lazarus is dead for four days / Osiris is dead for four days

Symbolic Assignment Issues. Mary and Martha may be, through Jannaeus Theory, Judah and Israel. The "four days" is interesting:

Hosea 6: 1 - 2 (RSV):

[1] "Come, let us return to the LORD; for he has torn, that he may heal us;
he has stricken, and he will bind us up.
[2] After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.

The fourth day?

* Jesus commands Lazarus to rise and come out of his tomb / Horus commands Osiris to stand up and walk out of his tomb

John 11: 41 - 44 (RSV):

[41] So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
[42] I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me."
[43] When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Laz'arus, come out."
[44] The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."

So "Jesus" is speaking obliquely (to the crowd, i.e., YOU.). This text is oblique as well. "The dead man came out...". Lazarus, if Real, is DEAD. The dead know nothing and have nothing to do with this world. If symbolic, this is evidence of the Transvaluation that is to occur under the Romans.

* The earliest artwork of Lazarus show him as a mummy

'Cos Lazarus is DEAD!!!

That John, Mark, Secret Mark all intersect at this junction is evidence that the three texts are related. So the Fleeing Youth with the lenin cloth in Mark and Secret Mark is readily identified as Lazarus and the Beloved Disciple from John.

They may be related at this point. I currently take no position on Secret Mark. I do disagree with your statement on the Fleeing Youth. I have the Youth as a Recruit of the Priesthood at the 4 BCE Slaughter - see the Thackeray Translation as the Whiston Translation is found wanting at this point.

I also have the "Beloved Disciple" as the Tenth Legion, which is in Jerusalem for its Destruction. [Edit Note: There are those who believe that the NT reflects the story of Julius Caesar. There are some very deep levels of Match 'em Up at work here. I cannot remember the name of the Advocate who Posted on this site with all of this. Anyway, the Tenth Legion was Julius Caesar's favorite, even if they Effed-up from time to time. So, the "Favorite Disciple", following the Roman Thesis, may be the Tenth Legion. YMMV.]

So Antinous? This explains the homoerotic undertone of Secret Mark, as Antinous was the boy-lover of Hadrian, who went to great lengths to deify him after his death.

Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Nero":

"Besides abusing freeborn boys and seducing married women, he [NERO] debauched the vestal virgin Rubria. The freedwoman Acte he all but made his lawful wife, after bribing some ex-consuls to perjure themselves by swearing that she was of royal birth. He castrated the boy Sporus and actually tried to make a woman of him; and he married him with all the usual ceremonies, including a dowry and a bridal veil, took him to his house attended by a great throng, and treated him as his wife..."

There is a YUUUGE undercurrent of Cultural Revulsion here. Judea could not become a supporting member of the Romans because of Rulers such as these. Remember that there were large numbers of lyin' Democr...Pharisees who declared that Jannaeus and, especially Salome had Greek blood in them, wanting to deny Jannaeus of performing in the Office of High Priest. Josephus declares it all a lie.

Some things never change.

Anyway, you've seen, Joseph D. L., events described during Hadrian's rule. I don't know if I can go that far. If, however, the descriptive power of Hadrian and Antinous goes farther than the Mishmarot Priesthood explanation, it will show.

With the amount of work I've put in with this, I care.

Thanx, as always.

CW

[Joseph D. L.]

Okay, thanks.

So, for example, Osiris being dead for four days.... I am on a web page which purports to be a translation by Faulkner and two others: https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/translation.html, and I can find nothing (yet?) about Osiris being dead for four days. Lots and lots of instructions to recite something four times (I mean, lots), but nothing about the duration of Osiris' deathly tenure.

I did, however, vaguely recall having read something in another ancient source (not necessarily primary in the strictest sense, but still ancient), so I looked it up:

Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 39: 39 The insidious scheming and usurpation of Typhon, then, is the power of drought, which gains control and dissipates the moisture which is the source of the Nile and of its rising; and his coadjutor, the Queen of the Ethiopians, signifies allegorically the south winds from Ethiopia; for whenever these gain the upper hand over the northerly or Etesian winds which drive the clouds towards Ethiopia, Dand when they prevent the falling of the rains which cause the rising of the Nile, then Typhon, being in possession, blazes with scorching heat; and having gained complete mastery, he forces the Nile in retreat to draw back its waters for weakness, and, flowing at the bottom of its almost empty channel, to proceed to the sea. The story told of the shutting up of Osiris in the chest seems to mean nothing else than the vanishing and disappearance of water. Consequently they say that the disappearance of Osiris occurred in the month of Athyr, at the time when, owing to the complete cessation of the Etesian winds, the Nile recedes to its low level and the land becomes denuded. As the nights grow longer, the darkness increases, and the potency of the light is abated and subdued. Then among the gloomy rites which the priests perform, they shroud the gilded image of a cow with a black linen vestment, and display her as a sign of mourning for the goddess, inasmuch as they regard both the cow and the earth as the image of Isis; and this is kept up for four days consecutively, beginning with the seventeenth of the month. The things mourned for are four in number: first, the departure and recession of the Nile; second, the complete extinction of the north winds, as the south winds gain the upper hand; third, the day's growing shorter than the night; and, to crown all, the denudation of the earth together with the defoliation of the trees and shrubs at this time. On the nineteenth day Fthey go down to the sea at night-time; and the keepers of the robes and the priests bring forth the sacred chest containing a small golden coffer, into which they pour some potable water which they have taken up, and a great shout arises from the company for joy that Osiris is found. Then they knead some fertile soil with the water and mix in spices and incense of a very costly sort, and fashion therefrom a crescent-shaped figure, which they clothe and adorn, thus indicating that they regard these gods as the substance of Earth and Water.

Is this the source for the four days? Or are there others? Or am I missing it in the Pyramid Texts?

The website you linked to only has the Utterances found in the tomb of Unas so it is not a complete list. There's over 750 Utterances.

I couldn't find a list of Faulkner's translation, but Mercer isn't that bad. I compared Mercer with the hard copy of Faulkner that I have and it's pretty close.

Utterance 419

743a. To say: Greetings to thee, N., on this thy day,

743b. as thou standest before Rē‘, when he ariseth in the east,

743c. adorned with this thy dignity among the spirits.

743d. The arms interlace for thee; the feet agitate for thee; the hands wave for thee.

744a. Isis laid hold of thine arm; she caused thee to enter into the min.w.

744b. The earth is adorned; thy mourners lament.

745a. May Anubis First of the Westerners give an offering:

745b. thy thousands of loaves of bread, thy thousands of mugs of beer, thy thousands of jars of ointment,

745c. thy thousands of alabaster vases (of perfume), thy thousands of garments,

745d. thy thousands of heads of oxen.

746a. The śmn-goose will be beheaded for thee; the trp-goose will be killed for thee.

746b. Horus has exterminated the evil which was in N. in his four day (term);

746c. Set has annulled that which he did against N. in his eight day (term).

747a. The doors are open for those in secret places.

747b. Stand up, remove thy earth, shake off thy dust, raise thyself up,

748a. voyage thou with the spirits.

748b. Thy wings are those of a falcon; thy brightness is that of a star.

748c. No enemy (?) will bend over N.;

748d. the heart of N. will not be taken; his heart will not be carried off.

749a. N. is a great one with an uninjured wrr.t-crown.

749b. N. equips himself with his firm (or, iron, shining) limbs.

749c. N. voyages, over the sky to the Marsh of Reeds;

249d. N. makes his abode in the Marsh of Offerings,

749e. among the imperishable stars in the following of Osiris.

I will say that the Pyramid Texts don't give an actual number of days between Osiris's death and his resurrection, however. The above is a coincidence.

However, the four day period between death and resurrection is also found on the Ikhernofret Stela, which explicitly has a period of four days between Osiris's death and his resurrection, with each day in between being a day of certain ritual functions. The Songs of Isis and Nephthys also includes a period of four days between Osiris's murder and his return to life as Sokar.

[Ben C. Smith]

I will say that the Pyramid Texts don't give an actual number of days between Osiris's death and his resurrection, however. The above is a coincidence.

However, the four day period between death and resurrection is also found on the Ikhernofret Stela, which explicitly has a period of four days between Osiris's death and his resurrection, with each day in between being a day of certain ritual functions.

This? This? I guess I am not seeing the four days yet, but I have read it through only twice so far. The Wikipedia page states that "the festivities were celebrated in four main parts," and it lists those parts, but I cannot tell why those four activities in particular are picked out from what appears to my eye to be a longer or more detailed list of activities (unless, of course, those are the particular activities which correspond to four days or parts in other texts, and that is what I am trying to ascertain).

The Songs of Isis and Nephthys also includes a period of four days between Osiris's murder and his return to life as Sokar.

I have found Faulkner's translation of this text on JSTOR, but will have to read it later when I have more time. It is a long text; do you happen to know where therein the four days are described as such? Thanks!

ETA: The Wikipedia article for the Ikhernofret Stela footnotes Jan Assmann, Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt, who on pages 227-229 breaks down the rites into four parts as follows:

I. The Procession of Wepwawet (“Opener-of-the-Ways”):

I arranged the procession of Wepwawet, when he went to the aid of his father. I beat back those who rebelled against the neshmet-barque and subdued the enemies of Osiris.

II. The “Great Procession” in the Neshmet-barque:

I arranged the Great Procession and accompanied the god on his way. I caused the divine barque to sail, and Thoth granted that the journey went well. I outfitted the barque “Appearing in Maat” of the lord of Abydos with a cabin and put on his crown. How beautiful was his procession to the district of U-poqer! I sanctified the ways of the god to his grave at the peak of U-poqer.

III. The Night of the “Battling Horus”: The Haker Festival:

I took action for Wennefer on that day of the great battle. I subdued all his enemies on the sand bank of Nedyt.

IV. The Procession to the Temple of Osiris:

I caused him to go out in procession to the interior of the “Great One” (i.e., the neshmet-barque); it bore his beauty. I broadened the heart of the eastern desert, I created jubilation in the western desert, when they saw the beauty of the neshmet-barque, after it put in at Abydos in order to bring Osiris Khentamentiu to his palace (in the temple). I conducted the god to his house. His purification was carried out, his places were made broad....

In footnote 71 on page 453 he credits E. Otto, Osiris und Amun: Kult und Heiligen Stätten, for his interpretation.

[Joseph D. L.]

I will say that the Pyramid Texts don't give an actual number of days between Osiris's death and his resurrection, however. The above is a coincidence.

However, the four day period between death and resurrection is also found on the Ikhernofret Stela, which explicitly has a period of four days between Osiris's death and his resurrection, with each day in between being a day of certain ritual functions.

This? This? I guess I am not seeing the four days yet, but I have read it through only twice so far. The Wikipedia page states that "the festivities were celebrated in four main parts," and it lists those parts, but I cannot tell why those four activities in particular are picked out from what appears to my eye to be a longer or more detailed list of activities (unless, of course, those are the particular activities which correspond to four days or parts in other texts, and that is what I am trying to ascertain).

The Songs of Isis and Nephthys also includes a period of four days between Osiris's murder and his return to life as Sokar.

I have found Faulkner's translation of this text on JSTOR, but will have to read it later when I have more time. It is a long text; do you happen to know where therein the four days are described as such? Thanks!

ETA: The Wikipedia article for the Ikhernofret Stela footnotes Jan Assmann, Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt, who on pages 227-229 breaks down the rites into four parts as follows:

I. The Procession of Wepwawet (“Opener-of-the-Ways”):

I arranged the procession of Wepwawet, when he went to the aid of his father. I beat back those who rebelled against the neshmet-barque and subdued the enemies of Osiris.

II. The “Great Procession” in the Neshmet-barque:

I arranged the Great Procession and accompanied the god on his way. I caused the divine barque to sail, and Thoth granted that the journey went well. I outfitted the barque “Appearing in Maat” of the lord of Abydos with a cabin and put on his crown. How beautiful was his procession to the district of U-poqer! I sanctified the ways of the god to his grave at the peak of U-poqer.

III. The Night of the “Battling Horus”: The Haker Festival:

I took action for Wennefer on that day of the great battle. I subdued all his enemies on the sand bank of Nedyt.

IV. The Procession to the Temple of Osiris:

I caused him to go out in procession to the interior of the “Great One” (i.e., the neshmet-barque); it bore his beauty. I broadened the heart of the eastern desert, I created jubilation in the western desert, when they saw the beauty of the neshmet-barque, after it put in at Abydos in order to bring Osiris Khentamentiu to his palace (in the temple). I conducted the god to his house. His purification was carried out, his places were made broad....

In footnote 71 on page 453 he credits E. Otto, Osiris und Amun: Kult und Heiligen Stätten, for his interpretation.

Okay, so the rituals from the Ikhernofret Stela are daily rituals, so they're not performed all on the same day. So the first day after Osiris dies is the The Procession of Wepwawet, then the second day is the The “Great Procession” in the Neshmet-barque, then the third day is the mock-battle between the forces of Horus and Set, then finally in the fourth day is that Osiris is set up in the Temple, indicating his return.

I did some skimming through my Pyramid Texts, and they do indicate a four day period between death and resurrection.

Utterance 483

1011a. To say: The libation is poured which should be poured. Wp.wȝ.wt is up.

1011b. The sleeping ones are awake, awakened are those who should awake; Horus is awake.

1012a. Raise thyself up, Osiris N., son of Geb, his, first(-born),

1012b. before whom the Great Ennead tremble.

1012c. Thou purifiest thyself on the first of the month, thou dawnest on the day of the new moon, for thee will be celebrated the three beginnings (of the divisions of the year).

1012d. The great min.t mourns for thee, as for "Him who stands there without being tired," who resides at Abydos.

1013a. Earth, hear that which Geb said, that he spiritualized Osiris as god,

1013b. as the watchers of Buto appointed him, and the watchers of Hierakonpolis proclaimed him,

1013c. like Seker, who is at the head of Pdw-š,

1013b. (like) Horus-Ḥȝ, and (like) Ḥmn.

1014a. The earth speaks: "The portal of the Dȝ.t (var. ȝkr) is open."

1014b. The double doors of Geb are open for thee, before thee. Thy speech goes forth before Anubis;

1015a. thy dignity, which is come out of the mouth of Anubis, is Horus, who is chief of his department (or, thigh-offering),

1015b. he of Śȝtw.t, the lord of S'bw.t (the rebel city),

1015c. the Upper Egyptian jackal god, nome-governor of the Great Ennead.

1016a. Thou withdrawest thyself to heaven on thy firm throne;

p. 179

1016b. thou ferriest over the Winding Watercourse, while thy face is in the north of Nut.

1016c. Rē‘ calls thee out of the 'iskn of heaven;

1016d. thou approachest the god; Set fraternizes with thee.

1017a. The odour of Ddwn is on thee, the Upper Egyptian youth;

1017b. he gives thee his pure incense wherewith he censes the gods,

1017c. at the birth of the two children (twins?) of the king of Lower Egypt, who are on the head of the lord of the great (crown).

1018a. Thou hast abundance in the green herb,

1018b. where abundance came to the children of Geb.

1018c. Thy dismembered limbs are collected, thou who hast might over the Bows.

1019a. May Anubis give an offering: The ’imȝ-tree serves thee; the nbś-tree turns its head to thee;

1019b. thou encirclest the sky like Swntw (or, Swnt).

Again, copy/pasting Mercer because I can't type all of this out. Faulkner renders the highlighted portion as May you be pure at the monthly festival, may you be manifest at the New Moon, may the three-day festival be celebrated for you.

And there's numerous similar mentions of the three day festival in the Pyramid Texts.

So basically, Osiris dies, then four days later he is revived at the end of the festival, which spanned three days.

It's like the reverse of Jesus, who wasn't dead for three days, but a little less than 48 hours. "Days" is used in general terms, so if it happens on that day, the entire day is counted. It's similar to Osiris, because his death is reckoned by the New Moon, which is three days, so the day after the New Moon, when he revives, is the fourth day after he died.

And for the Songs of Isis and Nephthys, I should tell you that this a mystery play that would be performed at Denderah, and it was during the 22nd to the 26th of Khoiak when the performances in the Song would be made.

[Giuseppe]

Often it is said that the Lazarus's resurrection was not so important as the resurrection of the Gospel Jesus, but what if they were similar? Lazarus was risen, but he didn't become a deity for this. What if also the resurrection of Jesus made him merely a human being walking in Galilee, just as he was before the death ?

The possibility is raised by this point:

13. They affirm that many of his disciples were not aware of the descent of Christ into him; but that, when Christ did descend on Jesus, he then began to work miracles, and heal, and announce the unknown Father, and openly to confess himself the son of the first man. The powers and the father of Jesus were angry at these proceedings, and laboured to destroy him; and when he was being led away for this purpose, they say that Christ himself, along with Sophia, departed from him into the state of an incorruptible Æon, while Jesus was crucified. Christ, however, was not forgetful of his Jesus, but sent down a certain energy into him from above, which raised him up again in the body, which they call both animal and spiritual; for he sent the mundane parts back again into the world. When his disciples saw that he had risen, they did not recognise him — no, not even Jesus himself, by whom he rose again from the dead. And they assert that this very great error prevailed among his disciples, that they imagined he had risen in a mundane body, not knowing that flesh and blood do not attain to the kingdom of God.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103130.htm

This thread has been used for goals different from my first post, by people who don't like my view. So here a correction to return in topic:

When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.

He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

(Luke 7)

Jesus == the spiritual Christ of Marcion
The centurion == the demiurge
The servant of centurion == the carnal Jesus

The inference is that the servant, when he rises (just as Lazarus), believes wrongly that the centurion (YHWH) had him risen, and not the spiritual Christ.

[Joseph D. L.]

Yeah, I was wondering why you originally posted on Night's thread claiming we hijacked it.

[Joseph D. L.]

Of course if you want to be technical, Osiris could not have been resurrected before 72 days, as it was the time it took to be mummified. But there are indeed sources, textual, and ritual, that do indicate a period of four days, from the day of his death to the day of his resurrection.

[Ben C. Smith]

Of course if you want to be technical, Osiris could not have been resurrected before 72 days, as it was the time it took to be mummified. But there are indeed sources, textual, and ritual, that do indicate a period of four days, from the day of his death to the day of his resurrection.

I guess what is making me hesitate is the messiness of it, at least so far.

For example, you quoted a line of Faulkner's from the Pyramid Texts as "the three-day festival," yet your other translation of that same line comes out as "the three beginnings (of the divisions of the year)," putting me in mind of the three Egyptian seasons (Flooding, Growing, and Harvesting), not three days. I do not know the relevant language, so I cannot determine which is the correct translation. Besides this, the number in question is three, not four. The number in Plutarch is four. Do those adjacent numbers describe the same length of time, expressed differently? Maybe, but I am not sure. You mention other primary sources, but so far I have not been able to examine them.

I am quite open to the notion that Lazarus is based on Osiris; I think that the gospel of John probably shows other signs of a similar syncretism, as well (water into wine being Dionysian, for example), so the pattern would fit. But I would like to make sure the evidence is secure before getting too excited about it, if that makes sense.

[Secret Alias]

Lazarus = Eleazar. A better case can be made.

[Ben C. Smith]

Lazarus = Eleazar. A better case can be made.

I have explored that possibility a bit: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2575.