Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

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Giuseppe
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Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

Post by Giuseppe »

Often it is said that the Lazarus's resurrection was not so important as the resurrection of the Gospel Jesus, but what if they were similar? Lazarus was risen, but he didn't become a deity for this. What if also the resurrection of Jesus made him merely a human being walking in Galilee, just as he was before the death ?

The possibility is raised by this point:

13. They affirm that many of his disciples were not aware of the descent of Christ into him; but that, when Christ did descend on Jesus, he then began to work miracles, and heal, and announce the unknown Father, and openly to confess himself the son of the first man. The powers and the father of Jesus were angry at these proceedings, and laboured to destroy him; and when he was being led away for this purpose, they say that Christ himself, along with Sophia, departed from him into the state of an incorruptible Æon, while Jesus was crucified. Christ, however, was not forgetful of his Jesus, but sent down a certain energy into him from above, which raised him up again in the body, which they call both animal and spiritual; for he sent the mundane parts back again into the world. When his disciples saw that he had risen, they did not recognise him — no, not even Jesus himself, by whom he rose again from the dead. And they assert that this very great error prevailed among his disciples, that they imagined he had risen in a mundane body, not knowing that flesh and blood do not attain to the kingdom of God.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103130.htm
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

Post by Giuseppe »

If this was the case, then the crucifixion of the man Jesus becomes only allegory, a "type", of the celestial crucifixion of the spiritual Christ. I.e. separationism implies the belief in the celestial crucifixion of the Christ.

Just as the stupid resurrection of Lazarus prefigures the true resurrection of Jesus Christ in the Fourth Gospel, so the stupid resurrection of the man Jesus (in a separationist reading of Mark) allegorizes the true resurrection of Christ in heaven.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Lazarus is likely the original resurrection. It's the main point of convergence between John, Mark, Secret Mark. The Parable of the Rich Man's Son in Luke is based on Lazarus.

The implication is that in the original Gospel, Jesus died and remained dead.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

Post by Charles Wilson »

"Lazarus" => "Eleazar".

Mark 5:

[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years,
[26] and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse.
[27] She had heard the reports about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment.
[28] For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well."
[29] And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease.
[30] And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?"

Attention Markan Priority fans!
Existence is not a Predicate!!! "Jesus" is SOOOO Metaphysically aware of Nature that if you even touch his "Garments", he is aware! This radiative effect may end at the edge of this clothes, however. What are the Physics of this? Could we duplicate it in a lab somewhere?

No, the Story is Symbolic. Mark has written skillfully. He appends the following into a seamless garment - a Cuirass, perhaps, with this:

[31] And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, `Who touched me?'"

NO!!! Who touched his GARMENTS!!!

[32] And he looked around to see who had done it.
[33] But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth.
[34] And he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease."
[35] While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?"
[36] But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe."
[37] And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.
[38] When they came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, he saw a tumult, and people weeping and wailing loudly.
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
[40] And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was.
[41] Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise."
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.

Two Stories with a common identifier - "TWELVE YEARS".

The little girl is "Resurrected".

"Lazarus" is "Resurrected".

John 11 is the Roman Template for what is to happen. What if we substituted "Eleazar" for the Greek "Lazarus":

[2] It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Eleazar was ill.
[3] So the sisters sent to him, saying, "Lord, he whom you love is ill."
...
[5] Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Eleazar
...
[11] Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, "Our friend Eleazar has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep."
[12] The disciples said to him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."
[13] Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep.
[14] Then Jesus told them plainly, "Eleazar is dead;
...
[17] Now when Jesus came, he found that Eleazar had already been in the tomb four days.
...
[43] When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Eleazar", come out."
[44] The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."
...
John 12: 1 - 2 (RSV):
[1] Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Eleazar was, whom Jesus had raised from the dead.
[2] There they made him a supper; Martha served, and Eleazar was one of those at table with him.

If "Jesus" was Real, he is Unclean by Authority of the Book of Numbers. There is a way out of this Puzzle (The SECOND Passover a month later...) but that only leads to another Puzzle. Here's where a few of the Survivors such as Zakkai at Javneh may have played a role but that's for another day.

The point is that the Markan Story may be a Symbolic Tale of the Hasmoneans:

1 Chronicles 24:

[1] The divisions of the sons of Aaron were these. The sons of Aaron: Nadab, Abi'hu, Elea'zar, and Ith'amar.
[2] But Nadab and Abi'hu died before their father, and had no children, so Elea'zar and Ith'amar became the priests.
[3] With the help of Zadok of the sons of Elea'zar, and Ahim'elech of the sons of Ith'amar, David organized them according to the appointed duties in their service.
[4] Since more chief men were found among the sons of Elea'zar than among the sons of Ith'amar, they organized them under sixteen heads of fathers' houses of the sons of Elea'zar, and eight of the sons of Ith'amar.
[5] They organized them by lot, all alike, for there were officers of the sanctuary and officers of God among both the sons of Elea'zar and the sons of Ith'amar.
[6] And the scribe Shemai'ah the son of Nethan'el, a Levite, recorded them in the presence of the king, and the princes, and Zadok the priest, and Ahim'elech the son of Abi'athar, and the heads of the fathers' houses of the priests and of the Levites; one father's house being chosen for Elea'zar and one chosen for Ith'amar.
[7] The first lot fell to Jehoi'arib, the second to Jedai'ah,
...
[14] the fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,
...
[19] These had as their appointed duty in their service to come into the house of the LORD according to the procedure established for them by Aaron their father, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded him.

This is the hidden Story of Eleazar and it is all over the NT.

This is the Story of the HASMONEANS who were assigned Membership in Jehoiarib, although Immer claims them as well. Bilgah is the fiftennth Mishmarot Group and they were on Duty at the Passover Slaughter of 4 BCE, at the Interregnum of Herod and son Archelaus. Bilgah committed an Offense against the Priesthood and is deprecated in Honor to the other 23 Mishmarot Groups.

Immer follows Bilgah and the Coup against the Herodians and Romans is centered in this Group. Immer will re-establish and re-dedicate a New Temple not built by human hands on the Weekly Sabbath following this Passover.
Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:53 am Lazarus is likely the original resurrection. It's the main point of convergence between John, Mark, Secret Mark. The Parable of the Rich Man's Son in Luke is based on Lazarus.
The implication is that in the original Gospel, Jesus died and remained dead.
Within the Symbolic Story guidelines, Joseph D. L. is correct. The Hasmonean Dynasty is DEAD. It has been dead for "Four Days". Beyond this time a body cannot be Resurrected. "Jesus", however, may do what even God cannot. He will Resurrect Lazarus - ELEAZAR - and Transplant the Priesthood into Rome.

CW
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Charles Wilson wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:45 am Within the Symbolic Story guidelines, Joseph D. L. is correct. The Hasmonean Dynasty is DEAD. It has been dead for "Four Days". Beyond this time a body cannot be Resurrected. "Jesus", however, may do what even God cannot. He will Resurrect Lazarus - ELEAZAR - and Transplant the Priesthood into Rome.

CW
Lazarus is Antinous. When Antinous died in Egypt he was immediately identified with Osiris, meaning he underwent the same ritualistic process as Osiris. (Yes, even if he died in the Nile, as those who died in the Nile were believed to be as ritualistically prepared for the afterlife as those who were mummified. )

* Lazarus has two sisters who mourn for him / Osiris has two sisters who mourn him.

* Lazarus is dead for four days / Osiris is dead for four days

* Jesus commands Lazarus to rise and come out of his tomb / Horus commands Osiris to stand up and walk out of his tomb

* The earliest artwork of Lazarus show him as a mummy

That John, Mark, Secret Mark all intersect at this junction is evidence that the three texts are related. So the Fleeing Youth with the lenin cloth in Mark and Secret Mark is readily identified as Lazarus and the Beloved Disciple from John.

So Antinous? This explains the homoerotic undertone of Secret Mark, as Antinous was the boy-lover of Hadrian, who went to great lengths to deify him after his death. Antinous was also incorporated into the mysteries of Dionysus and Attis, and it's probably through him that so much extra-pagan imagery became associated with Jesus and Christianity later on. There's also the niggling fact that the Harpocratians (Carpocratians) used a variant of Secret Mark, were named after Harpocrates, the infant Horus, and did partake in homosexual acts.

Irenaeus also said that the Carpocratians possessed a portrait of Jesus painted Pontius Pilate. I wonder if it was actually a portrait of Antinous painted by Hadrian.

Ah well. Who cares, right?
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

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There's so much Jewish, Gnostic and semi-Christian syncretism in that chapter 30 of Irenaeus's Against Heresies.

e.g. the first section -

1. Others, again, portentously declare that there exists, in the power of Bythus, a certain primary light, blessed, incorruptible, and infinite: this is the Father of all, and is styled the first man. They also maintain that his Ennœa, going forth from him, produced a son, and that this is the son of manthe second man. Below these, again, is the Holy Spirit, and under this superior spirit the elements were separated from each other, viz., water, darkness, the abyss, chaos, above which they declare the Spirit was borne, calling him the first woman. Afterwards, they maintain, the first man, with his son, delighting over the beauty of the Spirit — that is, of the woman— and shedding light upon her, begot by her an incorruptible light, the third male, whom they call Christ, — the son of the first and second man, and of the Holy Spirit, the first woman. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103130.htm


2. ... their only son Christ, as belonging to the right side, and ever tending to what was higher, was immediately caught up with his mother to form an incorruptible Æon. This constitutes the true and holy Church, which has become the appellation, the meeting together, and the union of the father of all, of the first man, of the son, of the second man, of Christ their son, and of the woman who has been mentioned.

Several references to Adam and Eve.

Then

10. Ialdabaoth, again, being incensed with men, because they did not worship or honour him as father and God, sent forth a deluge upon them, that he might at once destroy them all. But Sophia opposed him in this point also, and Noah and his family were saved in the ark by means of the besprinkling of that light which proceeded from her, and through it the world was again filled with mankind. Ialdabaoth himself chose a certain man named Abraham from among these, and made a covenant with him, to the effect that, if his seed continued to serve him, he would give to them the earth for an inheritance. Afterwards, by means of Moses, he brought forth Abraham's descendants from Egypt, and gave them the law, and made them the Jews. Among that people he chose seven days, which they also call the holy Hebdomad. Each of these receives his own herald for the purpose of glorifying and proclaiming God; so that, when the rest hear these praises, they too may serve those who are announced as gods by the prophets.


11. Moreover, they distribute the prophets in the following manner: Moses, and Joshua the Son of Nun, and Amos, and Habakkuk, belonged to Ialdabaoth; Samuel, and Nathan, and Jonah, and Micah, to Iao; Elijah, Joel, and Zechariah to Sabaoth; Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Daniel, to Adonai; Tobias and Haggai to Eloi; Michaiah and Nahum to Oreus; Esdras and Zephaniah to Astanphæus. Each one of these, then, glorifies his own father and God, and they maintain that Sophia, herself has also spoken many things through them regarding the first Anthropos (man), and concerning that Christ who is above, thus admonishing and reminding men of the incorruptible light, the first Anthropos, and of the descent of Christ. The [other] powers being terrified by these things, and marvelling at the novelty of those things which were announced by the prophets, Prunicus brought it about by means of Ialdabaoth (who knew not what he did), that emissions of two men took place, the one from the barren Elizabeth, and the other from the Virgin Mary.

Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

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12 .... Upon this, her mother, the first woman, was moved with compassion towards her daughter [Prunicus*], on her repentance, and begged from the first man that Christ should be sent to her assistance, who, being sent forth, descended to his sister [Prunicus], and to the besprinkling of light. When he recognised her (that is, the Sophia below), her brother descended to her, and announced his advent through means of John, and prepared the baptism of repentance, and adopted Jesus beforehand, in order that on Christ descending he might find a pure vessel, and that by the son of that Ialdabaoth the woman might be announced by Christ. They further declare that he descended through the seven heavens, having assumed the likeness of their sons, and gradually emptied them of their power. For they maintain that the whole besprinkling of light rushed to him, and that Christ, descending to this world, first clothed his sister Sophia [with it], and that then both exulted in the mutual refreshment they felt in each other's society: this scene they describe as relating to bridegroom and bride. But Jesus, inasmuch as he was begotten of the Virgin through the agency of God, was wiser, purer, and more righteous than all other men: Christ united to Sophia descended into him, and thus Jesus Christ was produced.

* 3. They teach, however, that the power which proceeded from the woman by ebullition, being besprinkled with light, fell downward from the place occupied by its progenitors, yet possessing by its own will that besprinkling of light; and it they call Sinistra, Prunicus, and Sophia, as well as masculo-feminine.


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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:39 pmLazarus is Antinous. When Antinous died in Egypt he was immediately identified with Osiris, meaning he underwent the same ritualistic process as Osiris. (Yes, even if he died in the Nile, as those who died in the Nile were believed to be as ritualistically prepared for the afterlife as those who were mummified. )

* Lazarus has two sisters who mourn for him / Osiris has two sisters who mourn him.

* Lazarus is dead for four days / Osiris is dead for four days

* Jesus commands Lazarus to rise and come out of his tomb / Horus commands Osiris to stand up and walk out of his tomb

* The earliest artwork of Lazarus show him as a mummy
My knowledge of Osiris has thus far been mediated principally through secondary sources. What are the primary sources for the above points? I would be interested in catching up on them. Thanks.

ETA: I mean the sources for Osiris. I have seen the Lazarus artwork from the catacombs.
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

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Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:27 am
Joseph D. L. wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:39 pmLazarus is Antinous. When Antinous died in Egypt he was immediately identified with Osiris, meaning he underwent the same ritualistic process as Osiris. (Yes, even if he died in the Nile, as those who died in the Nile were believed to be as ritualistically prepared for the afterlife as those who were mummified. )

* Lazarus has two sisters who mourn for him / Osiris has two sisters who mourn him.

* Lazarus is dead for four days / Osiris is dead for four days

* Jesus commands Lazarus to rise and come out of his tomb / Horus commands Osiris to stand up and walk out of his tomb

* The earliest artwork of Lazarus show him as a mummy
My knowledge of Osiris has thus far been mediated principally through secondary sources. What are the primary sources for the above points? I would be interested in catching up on them. Thanks.

ETA: I mean the sources for Osiris. I have seen the Lazarus artwork from the catacombs.
Yo Ben. Been a while.

The primary sources are the funerary texts, the big three being the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, and Book of the Dead. Then you have subsidiary texts, like the Am Duat, Book of Caverns, Book of Gates, Book of the Earth, Book of the Sky, Book of the Heavenly Cow, Enigmatic Books of the Netherworld, etc. And then you have the Hellenistic Books for Traversing Eternity. And add in a whole bunch of inscriptions, papyrus, and what not, like the Edfu ritual texts, the Triumph of Horus, and texts from Abydos and Heliopolis and Thebes. There is simply too much to go over, which is why I link to Boswell's blog because he covers this better than I could ever hope to.

As far as the Lazarus/Osiris connection goes, you can just read the Pyramid Texts and you'll be set. (I prefer Faulkner's translation over Allen's because Allen is literal while Faulkner is contextual.) Everything is in there, and subsisted well into the Hellenistic era.

edit: Correction, the Enigmatic Books of the Netherworld are Ramsean, not Hellenistic. My bad.
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Re: Was the resurrection of Jesus similar to Lazarus's resurrection ?

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Joseph D. L. wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:55 amThe primary sources are the funerary texts, the big three being the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, and Book of the Dead. Then you have subsidiary texts, like the Am Duat, Book of Caverns, Book of Gates, Book of the Earth, Book of the Sky, Book of the Heavenly Cow, Enigmatic Books of the Netherworld, etc. And then you have the Hellenistic Books for Traversing Eternity. And add in a whole bunch of inscriptions, papyrus, and what not, like the Edfu ritual texts, the Triumph of Horus, and texts from Abydos and Heliopolis and Thebes. There is simply too much to go over, which is why I link to Boswell's blog because he covers this better than I could ever hope to.

As far as the Lazarus/Osiris connection goes, you can just read the Pyramid Texts and you'll be set. (I prefer Faulkner's translation over Allen's because Allen is literal while Faulkner is contextual.) Everything is in there, and subsisted well into the Hellenistic era.
Okay, thanks.

So, for example, Osiris being dead for four days.... I am on a web page which purports to be a translation by Faulkner and two others: https://www.pyramidtextsonline.com/translation.html, and I can find nothing (yet?) about Osiris being dead for four days. Lots and lots of instructions to recite something four times (I mean, lots), but nothing about the duration of Osiris' deathly tenure.

I did, however, vaguely recall having read something in another ancient source (not necessarily primary in the strictest sense, but still ancient), so I looked it up:

Plutarch, Isis and Osiris 39: 39 The insidious scheming and usurpation of Typhon, then, is the power of drought, which gains control and dissipates the moisture which is the source of the Nile and of its rising; and his coadjutor, the Queen of the Ethiopians, signifies allegorically the south winds from Ethiopia; for whenever these gain the upper hand over the northerly or Etesian winds which drive the clouds towards Ethiopia, Dand when they prevent the falling of the rains which cause the rising of the Nile, then Typhon, being in possession, blazes with scorching heat; and having gained complete mastery, he forces the Nile in retreat to draw back its waters for weakness, and, flowing at the bottom of its almost empty channel, to proceed to the sea. The story told of the shutting up of Osiris in the chest seems to mean nothing else than the vanishing and disappearance of water. Consequently they say that the disappearance of Osiris occurred in the month of Athyr, at the time when, owing to the complete cessation of the Etesian winds, the Nile recedes to its low level and the land becomes denuded. As the nights grow longer, the darkness increases, and the potency of the light is abated and subdued. Then among the gloomy rites which the priests perform, they shroud the gilded image of a cow with a black linen vestment, and display her as a sign of mourning for the goddess, inasmuch as they regard both the cow and the earth as the image of Isis; and this is kept up for four days consecutively, beginning with the seventeenth of the month. The things mourned for are four in number: first, the departure and recession of the Nile; second, the complete extinction of the north winds, as the south winds gain the upper hand; third, the day's growing shorter than the night; and, to crown all, the denudation of the earth together with the defoliation of the trees and shrubs at this time. On the nineteenth day Fthey go down to the sea at night-time; and the keepers of the robes and the priests bring forth the sacred chest containing a small golden coffer, into which they pour some potable water which they have taken up, and a great shout arises from the company for joy that Osiris is found. Then they knead some fertile soil with the water and mix in spices and incense of a very costly sort, and fashion therefrom a crescent-shaped figure, which they clothe and adorn, thus indicating that they regard these gods as the substance of Earth and Water.

Is this the source for the four days? Or are there others? Or am I missing it in the Pyramid Texts?
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