Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias »

I guess I am not getting the difficulty. So what you are saying is that Clement chose Mark because Matthew 19:23 is a problem. Is that correct?
“Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."
Clement's text of Mark has:
how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Let me look at this.

Clement's Mark τέκνα, πῶς δύσκολόν ἐστι τοὺς πεποιθότας ἐπὶ χρήμασιν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰσελθεῖν

πεποιθότας - 1 time in QDS (above)

πείθου - 1 time is QDS Νόμισον εἶναι τὸ πρᾶγμα διαδικασίαν. ὁ μὲν πατήρ σοι δοκείτω παρεστὼς λέγειν "ἐγώ σε ἔσπειρα καὶ ἔθρεψα, ἀκολούθει μοι καὶ συνα δίκει καὶ μὴ πείθου τῷ Χριστοῦ νόμῳ" καὶ ὁπόσα ἂν εἴποι βλά 23.2 σφημος ἄνθρωπος καὶ νεκρὸς τῇ φύσει. [23.1]

Suppose the matter to be a law-suit. Let your father be imagined to present himself to you and say, "I begot and reared thee. Follow me, and join with me in wickedness, and obey not the law of Christ;" and whatever a man who is a blasphemer and dead by nature would say.

Future - ἀλλ' ὅμως οὗτος ὁ τοιοῦτος ἀκριβῶς πέπεισται, διότι αὐτῷ πρὸς μὲν δικαιοσύνην οὐδὲν ἐνδεῖ, ζωῆς δὲ ὅλως προσδεῖ [8.4]

But, nevertheless, this man being such, is perfectly persuaded that nothing is wanting to him as far as respects righteousness, but that he is entirely destitute of life.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Tue May 26, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:09 am I guess I am not getting the difficulty. So what you are saying is that Clement chose Mark because Matthew 19:23 is a problem. Is that correct?
“Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."
Clement's text of Mark has:
how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Let me look at this.
That is the key phrase that Clement needs:

Matthew: it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom.
Mark (variant): it is hard for one who trusts in riches to enter the kingdom.
Luke: it is hard for one who has wealth to enter the kingdom.

Two of these make it sound like being rich by itself is an issue. One of them can (easily and, in my view, intentionally) be read as suggesting that it is only one's attitude toward one's riches that is the issue.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias »

Thank you. It would help me immensely if we could find an example of Clement relying on πείθου or some related terminology. To this point I don't see it. What I mean is to say that if Clement knew that Matthew was the original reading and his choice of Mark was one made to suit the point of winning an argument. Surely he would emphasize the wording of Mark related to the generally accepted or truer reading.

I have to admit I once read the material that way (i.e. that Matthew was lurking in the background) but I abandoned that interpretation because I couldn't find any real supporting evidence. Quicker or more likely is the idea that it was Mark who modified something he supposedly heard from Peter. Clement's 'choice' of Mark would be unaffected as it is still possible that Mark's Alexandrian tradition preferred Mark and made the choice for him. Samaritans use a version of the Pentateuch which makes explicit Mt Gerizim's holiness. The Masoretic lacks those readings. But I am not sure that based on the fact that the Samaritans prefer those readings that they deliberately ignored or turned their back on the Masoretic text. Like I said I don't get these sorts of arguments which are 'self-evident' to other people. The fact that Clement's text of Mark suits his argument isn't an argument in favor of the fact that he chose this text to win a debate.

Also would you say the same thing about Matthew's switch from 'poor' to 'poor in spirit'? That Matthew was modifying a more original reading found in Luke? Isn't it possible that the 'Ebionites' were so called because they had a variant text of Matthew which removed 'in spirit' and thus it was argued or implied that they preferred the blessedness of the poor without qualifications because they were poor or something like that. These arguments don't really prove anything other than fact that when you preserve a tradition it is usually based on faithful exegesis of a text that over time might become the minority reading.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson »

Clement, Rich Man, 12:
XII. Why then command as new, as divine, as alone life-giving, what did not save those of former days? And what peculiar thing is it that the new creature s the Son of God intimates and teaches? It is not the outward act which others have done, but something else indicated by it, greater, more godlike, more perfect, the stripping off of the passions from the soul itself and from the disposition, and the cutting up by the roots and casting out of what is alien to the mind. For this is the lesson peculiar to the believer, and the instruction worthy of the Saviour. For those who formerly despised external things relinquished and squandered their property, but the passions of the soul, I believe, they intensified. For they indulged in arrogance, pretension, and vainglory, and in contempt of the rest of mankind, as if they had done something superhuman.
Others had dispensed with external riches, but Jesus commanded that the internal attitude toward riches be stripped away. What are you not getting?

It does not have to be a use of the word πείθου.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:26 amAlso would you say the same thing about Matthew's switch from 'poor' to 'poor in spirit'? That it was modifying a more original reading found in Luke.
I think that Matthew's version is later (less original) than Luke's version, which is not necessarily the same thing as saying that Matthew is later than Luke. The first idea was probably that the poor will hold an advantage over the rich in the eschaton, plain and simple. Later on, nonpoor Christians had to find ways to reconcile this suggestion with their own lifestyle.
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Charles Wilson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Charles Wilson »

Matthew 18: 1 - 4 (RSV):

[1] At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
[2] And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them,
[3] and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[4] Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 13: 23 - 30 (RSV):

[23] And some one said to him, "Lord, will those who are saved be few?" And he said to them,
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
[25] When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, `Lord, open to us.' He will answer you, `I do not know where you come from.'
[26] Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.'
[27] But he will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!'
[28] There you will weep and gnash your teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And men will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit at table in the kingdom of God.
[30] And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Matthew 25: 1 - 13 (RSV):

[1] "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
[2] Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
[3] For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them;
[4] but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
[5] As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
[6] But at midnight there was a cry, `Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
[7] Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps.
[8] And the foolish said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
[9] But the wise replied, `Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'
[10] And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
[11] Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, `Lord, lord, open to us.'
[12] But he replied, `Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Mark 13: 32 - 37 (RSV):

[32] "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."
***
The Transvaluation has already occurred. The Story is not about Socialism or Communism or giving up riches or any of that. Archelaus falls at Caesar's feet ("There is one who is good", to let you know that it is Caesar, from Josephus.) and he is begging to be recognized as King of Judea so that he may have eternal life.

WATCH. WATCH. WATCH.

This is from the other side of the argument. 3000+ died and Archelaus is left holding the bag. At the end of this sordid affair (Am I moralizing here, Giuseppe?) Rome will absorb Judea and replace Archelaus with a Procurator

John 19: 15 (ESV):

[15] They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

Therein lies the Tale.

CW
Secret Alias
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Secret Alias »

Later on, nonpoor Christians had to find ways to reconcile this suggestion with their own lifestyle
Ok cool. Thanks. But you agree that someone who was part of a tradition which preferred Matthew wasn't necessarily "choosing " Matthew subjectively because it suited his idiosyncratic exegesis. That person might have subscribed to a pre-existenr exegesis established by Matthew himself or his first followers like a Samaritan who uses a Torah which specifies Mount Gerizim.

The Church Fathers so designated these people "heretics" because they framed the reliance on minority readings as a personal choice. But we don't have to perpetuate this nonsense i.e. Marcion's readings agree with Marcionite doctrine can only be explained by Marcion falsified a canonical gospel. Marcionite followers subscribed to Marcionism out of a willing choice to defy orthodoxy. This is not only stupid it's insane.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson »

Clement, Rich Man, 18:
And the one kind of also wealth would be desirable and worth getting; the
other undesirable and worthless. In the same manner
also poverty is blessed, that is, the spiritual kind.
Therefore Matthew added to "Blessed are the poor"; how? "in spirit." And again, "Blessed
are they that hunger and thirst after God's righteous­ness. Those then who are poor in the opposite
sense are miserable, being destitute of God, more
destitute still of human possessions, and unac­quainted with God's righteousness. [Butterworth’s Loeb translation].
There is no need to understand the word ‘added’ here as meaning ‘added to what was repeated from a source.’ It can reasonably be interpreted as explaining why Matthew included it. He could have written fewer words, but he felt it necessary to include these to communicate the correct meaning.

(I do think Matthew’s wording is more primitive than Luke’s, as, interestingly, does Butterworth, but I don’t think that has anything to do with what Clement meant).
Last edited by Ken Olson on Tue May 26, 2020 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:09 am
Later on, nonpoor Christians had to find ways to reconcile this suggestion with their own lifestyle
Ok cool. Thanks. But you agree that someone who was part of a tradition which preferred Matthew wasn't necessarily "choosing " Matthew subjectively because it suited his idiosyncratic exegesis. That person might have subscribed to a pre-existenr exegesis established by Matthew himself or his first followers like a Samaritan who uses a Torah which specifies Mount Gerizim.
I agree in principle with what you are saying here, yes. Sometimes people refer to certain books, not because they have scanned through all the possibilities and decided that these books are the ones which suit their current purpose, but rather because they are already accustomed to referring to those books for other reasons.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Tinker Tailor Soldier Forger

Post by Ken Olson »

Clement, Rich Man, 16:
XVI. The presence of wealth in these is deadly to all, the loss of it salutary. Of which, making the soul pure — that is, poor and bare (γυμνήν) — we must hear the Saviour speaking thus, Come, follow Me.
Ι think this might serve Le Boulluec and Huller's case slightly better than Rich Man 12. However, I wonder if this metaphorical use of naked might be Stoic (or possibly Epicurean) in origin. I don't have access to the TLG at the moment to check.
Last edited by Ken Olson on Tue May 26, 2020 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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