Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
The Crow
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by The Crow »

ghost wrote:Jupiter is called Dies Pater. He might be a sungod.
Dies Pater was the Roman god of the underworld.
ghost
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by ghost »

The Crow wrote:
ghost wrote:Jupiter is called Dies Pater. He might be a sungod.
Dies Pater was the Roman god of the underworld.
That's Dispater aka Pluto.

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/roma ... ty=jupiter
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/roma ... eity=PLUTO
The Crow
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by The Crow »

ghost wrote:
The Crow wrote:
ghost wrote:Jupiter is called Dies Pater. He might be a sungod.
Dies Pater was the Roman god of the underworld.
That's Dispater aka Pluto.

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/roma ... ty=jupiter
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/roma ... eity=PLUTO
True..I just cut it short for the sake of argument.
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by ghost »

The Crow wrote:True..I just cut it short for the sake of argument.
Dis and Dies are different. They're not the same.
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by The Crow »

ghost wrote:
The Crow wrote:True..I just cut it short for the sake of argument.
Dis and Dies are different. They're not the same.
OK, I have a hard enough time dealing with English.
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by ghost »

The Crow wrote:OK, I have a hard enough time dealing with English.
I don't know what "dis" means, but "dies" means "day" so that "dies pater" means something like "father day" or "day father", so Jupiter is kind of a god of the day and not just of the sky and weather. So if he's a day-god that's not far from a sun-god.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by neilgodfrey »

The Crow wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:Omg, we all know -- and many of us have surely known since high school history -- about astrology and the worship of planets, sun and moon etc. But so what? Where is the connection with the earliest evidence for Christian origins? Jesus had 12 disciples: hey, they must be the constellations (there's no other conceivable plausible explanation, none at all!), er, or maybe some sources say they represent the hours of the night, -- but Jean Dixon even told us which sign each disciple was born under. Slam dunk. That's how Christianity began.
Where is the connection with the earliest evidence for Christian origins?
Neil I am not saying this is the basis for Christian origins. Unless I miss my guess Paul is considered the founder of Christianity, right?

(1).Why is the number "12" seen more throughout the Bible than any other number? Coincidence? Maybe.
(2).Jesus a teacher at age 12. Coincidence? Maybe.
(3).12 disciples? Coincidence? Maybe.
(4).12 Tribes? Coincidence? Maybe.
(5).Joseph had 12 brothers? Coincidence? Maybe.

What are the odds that all of the above could have happened and they all accidentally come to the number 12 ? In my personal opinion I believe that it is more astronomical than astrological. There was no systematic observation of the heavens by the Jews as according to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
No systematic observations of the heavenly bodies were made by the Jews.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02029a.htm

Not interested in a pissing contest here. Interested in how people explain away the coincidences.
Twelve also had numerological significance, like other numbers. There is also the frequency of 2, 3, 5, 7 and multiples --- as there are multiples of 12 throughout the Bible. And multiples of 5 and 7. 12 is the product of 3 and 4, two other numbers of frequent significance -- and not just in the Bible. Numbers were believed to have spiritual properties or significance.

Many commentators look to Plato as an influence on the Bartimaeus story. Plato also said 12 was the perfect or ideal number into which to divide a new colony or settlement for administration purposes. Twelve tribes was the ideal division of a kingdom.

The most obvious source of the idea of 12 disciples comes from the Old Testament. That's not a coincidence. It's a direct influence. The NT writers knew the OT and based their narratives upon it. Jesus stories were based upon stories about Elijah and Moses and Joseph and Daniel and others. The story of the calling an selecting of the 12 disciples is set in a scene that is evidently influenced by the story of Moses leading the 12 tribes to Sinai.

These are not all coincidences that must be explained by something never hinted at anywhere -- they are direct borrowings.

Joseph's 11 (not 12) brothers are not coincidentally the same number of 12 tribes. The narrative in Genesis tells us exactly why he had 11 brothers -- they are all symbolic of the future of existence of the 12 tribes of Israel. Recall Joseph's dream explaining this -- the 11 brothers vicariously bowed before Joseph.

Ancient sources divide the night and day into 12 hours each. It's very hard to match two sets of 12 hours with 12 constellations. The Book of Revelation speaks of 24 elders who have been interpreted by literary comparisons as symbolic of the two sets of 12 hours (not constellations).

We have absolutely no evidence to indicate that the 12 disciples originated as some code for constellations. None. We have abundant evidence that they originated as an extension of the idea of the 12 tribes of Israel -- and that that idea was a numerological and philosophically significant number for the way a kingdom was divided in ancient times.

We could make just as lengthy a discussion about other numbers in the narratives -- 2, 3, 5, 7 and their various multiples.

I have evidence that the 12 apostles derived from the 12 tribes of Israel and indirectly from the philosophical significance of the number 12 in political administration. I have no evidence that they were originated as symbolic of the constellations. -- Or that they originated as symbolic of the 12 hours of the night.

I do see evidence that later generations did match them with constellations.

I am quite willing to consider the possibility that Christianity did originate in solar or astrological symbolism but I must wait till I see evidence for it first. All the evidence I have at present points to other sources.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by neilgodfrey »

It is conceivable that some OT tropes and persons did originate as astrological and other mythical types. Samson appears to have originated as a sun god. But if so, by the time we come to the NT writings those origins were long lost and forgotten -- just as we have forgotten and render irrelevant the origins of words we use , like "fortunate", "erotic", "jovial", "mercurial", "pandemic", "good bye", -- all calling upon the gods to be a part of our daily lives. Recall someone else's comment here about the origins of our jury of 12.

There is an alternate explanation, too, for the OT sources. Some scholars in more recent times have argued that the Pentateuch and other books of the OT were written very late and under the influence of Greek literature, including Plato, who wrote about the philosophical and political significance of numbers, including 12.

I apologize for my omg frustration in my initial post. I had mistaken the comment as from someone who has proven stubbornly resistant to any argument whatever apart from his own baseless speculations.
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The Crow
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by The Crow »

neilgodfrey wrote:
The Crow wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:Omg, we all know -- and many of us have surely known since high school history -- about astrology and the worship of planets, sun and moon etc. But so what? Where is the connection with the earliest evidence for Christian origins? Jesus had 12 disciples: hey, they must be the constellations (there's no other conceivable plausible explanation, none at all!), er, or maybe some sources say they represent the hours of the night, -- but Jean Dixon even told us which sign each disciple was born under. Slam dunk. That's how Christianity began.
Where is the connection with the earliest evidence for Christian origins?
Neil I am not saying this is the basis for Christian origins. Unless I miss my guess Paul is considered the founder of Christianity, right?

(1).Why is the number "12" seen more throughout the Bible than any other number? Coincidence? Maybe.
(2).Jesus a teacher at age 12. Coincidence? Maybe.
(3).12 disciples? Coincidence? Maybe.
(4).12 Tribes? Coincidence? Maybe.
(5).Joseph had 12 brothers? Coincidence? Maybe.

What are the odds that all of the above could have happened and they all accidentally come to the number 12 ? In my personal opinion I believe that it is more astronomical than astrological. There was no systematic observation of the heavens by the Jews as according to the Catholic Encyclopedia:
No systematic observations of the heavenly bodies were made by the Jews.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02029a.htm

Not interested in a pissing contest here. Interested in how people explain away the coincidences.
Twelve also had numerological significance, like other numbers. There is also the frequency of 2, 3, 5, 7 and multiples --- as there are multiples of 12 throughout the Bible. And multiples of 5 and 7. 12 is the product of 3 and 4, two other numbers of frequent significance -- and not just in the Bible. Numbers were believed to have spiritual properties or significance.

Many commentators look to Plato as an influence on the Bartimaeus story. Plato also said 12 was the perfect or ideal number into which to divide a new colony or settlement for administration purposes. Twelve tribes was the ideal division of a kingdom.

The most obvious source of the idea of 12 disciples comes from the Old Testament. That's not a coincidence. It's a direct influence. The NT writers knew the OT and based their narratives upon it. Jesus stories were based upon stories about Elijah and Moses and Joseph and Daniel and others. The story of the calling an selecting of the 12 disciples is set in a scene that is evidently influenced by the story of Moses leading the 12 tribes to Sinai.

These are not all coincidences that must be explained by something never hinted at anywhere -- they are direct borrowings.

Joseph's 11 (not 12) brothers are not coincidentally the same number of 12 tribes. The narrative in Genesis tells us exactly why he had 11 brothers -- they are all symbolic of the future of existence of the 12 tribes of Israel. Recall Joseph's dream explaining this -- the 11 brothers vicariously bowed before Joseph.

Ancient sources divide the night and day into 12 hours each. It's very hard to match two sets of 12 hours with 12 constellations. The Book of Revelation speaks of 24 elders who have been interpreted by literary comparisons as symbolic of the two sets of 12 hours (not constellations).

We have absolutely no evidence to indicate that the 12 disciples originated as some code for constellations. None. We have abundant evidence that they originated as an extension of the idea of the 12 tribes of Israel -- and that that idea was a numerological and philosophically significant number for the way a kingdom was divided in ancient times.

We could make just as lengthy a discussion about other numbers in the narratives -- 2, 3, 5, 7 and their various multiples.

I have evidence that the 12 apostles derived from the 12 tribes of Israel and indirectly from the philosophical significance of the number 12 in political administration. I have no evidence that they were originated as symbolic of the constellations. -- Or that they originated as symbolic of the 12 hours of the night.

I do see evidence that later generations did match them with constellations.

I am quite willing to consider the possibility that Christianity did originate in solar or astrological symbolism but I must wait till I see evidence for it first. All the evidence I have at present points to other sources.
I think further research in this area is needed.
We have absolutely no evidence to indicate that the 12 disciples originated as some code for constellations. None. We have abundant evidence that they originated as an extension of the idea of the 12 tribes of Israel -- and that that idea was a numerological and philosophically significant number for the way a kingdom was divided in ancient times.
I agree. I just thought the correlation was more than mere coincidence.
Twelve also had numerological significance, like other numbers. There is also the frequency of 2, 3, 5, 7 and multiples --- as there are multiples of 12 throughout the Bible. And multiples of 5 and 7. 12 is the product of 3 and 4, two other numbers of frequent significance -- and not just in the Bible. Numbers were believed to have spiritual properties or significance.
Again I agree with your opinion here.
I have evidence that the 12 apostles derived from the 12 tribes of Israel and indirectly from the philosophical significance of the number 12 in political administration. I have no evidence that they were originated as symbolic of the constellations. -- Or that they originated as symbolic of the 12 hours of the night.
I would like to see it simply for my own knowledge if its possible?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by neilgodfrey »

The Crow wrote:I would like to see it simply for my own knowledge if its possible?
Not sure what evidence you are looking for. We know the gospels were based on the OT. Example, with the choosing of the 12 apostles in Mark we have the following reasons to support its borrowing from Exodus.

Jesus' life is threatened by the rulers and he leaves the area with a large multitude from all about following him down to the sea. Jesus performs miraculous signs of healing all the way. From the sea he departs to a mountain, ascends the mountain and there chooses his twelve to be with him.

Moses, too, was threatened by the ruler and left Egypt for the sea with a large multitude (including non-Israelites) following him. He performed miraculous signs of death. From the sea he went to a mountain with his twelve tribes, ascended it, and there through Moses God ordained the twelve tribes to be his special people.

Later Jesus sends out the twelve into the surrounding area just as Moses selected twelve representatives to go ahead of Israel throughout Canaan.

Jesus (=Joshua) is the "new Moses" establishing the new covenant with a new Israel. Twelve is symbolic of Israel, not the constellations, in the NT.

In the healing of Jairus' daughter the number 12 appears twice -- once for the daughter's age and once for the hemorrhaging woman -- both are symbolic of Israel and are set beside a miracle for gentiles involving pigs and demons and a "legion".

In the miracle of the loaves there were 12 baskets gathered up from 5000 Israelites -- 12 being symbolic of Israel -- just as in the miracle of the loaves for the 4000 gentiles there were 7 baskets.

In Revelation we are told specifically that twelve represents the apostles. And the apostles we learn are the foundations of the new Israel. In Matthew they are the rulers of the tribes of Israel.

12 represents Israel. Both the old Israel and the new.

The evidence is overwhelming, I think.
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