Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
The Crow
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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MrMacSon wrote:
Robert Tulip wrote:Stephan and Neil, does your blanket rejection of astrotheology mean you believe that Jesus Christ was not invented as solar allegory?
Excuse my intrusion, but I didn't engaged with or read past discussions. Briefly, is astrotheology the application of astrology by ancient peoples in developing [their] theology?
Mac here ya go.
Astrotheology is the study of the astronomical origins of religion; how gods, goddesses, and demons are personifications of astronomical phenomena such as lunar eclipses, planetary alignments, and apparent interactions of planetary bodies with stars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolatry

Term first appeared in a work by William Derham in 1714....Manly P Hall's works are astrotheological centered:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/

THE GREAT MYTH OF THE SUN-GODS

http://meuser.awardspace.com/gmass/the_ ... gods.shtml

Alvin Boyd Kuhn

There are more.
Last edited by The Crow on Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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The Crow wrote:In what ways are they flawed Neil? Do you believe there is astrological symbolism in the Bible?
Of course there is astrological symbolism in the Bible. I have written about some of it, especially in the Book of Revelation. But it's nonsense to suggest that all astrological symbolism supports the thesis of astrotheology. But I have no desire to repeat the content I covered in so many exchanges with Robert a little while ago in other threads such as the Loaves and Fishes one or that I have covered in my blog. I leave it to Robert to show the answers he has raised to my questions and to the questions I raised he failed to answer.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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The Crow wrote:In what ways are they flawed Neil? Do you believe there is astrological symbolism in the Bible?
Robert Tulip has claimed his method is based on the hypothetico deductive method as per the wikipedia article on same: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetic ... tive_model

But every prediction Robert has made (step #3) is so vague, so general, it could be used to predict any hypothesis. Don't even mention step #4 -- if I recall correctly he has even said that it is not his job to find arguments against his hypothesis.

See also Sandmel's article on parallelomania. Murdock's and Robert's parallels are exactly of the kind Sandmel is talking about.
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The Crow
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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neilgodfrey wrote:
The Crow wrote:In what ways are they flawed Neil? Do you believe there is astrological symbolism in the Bible?
Robert Tulip has claimed his method is based on the hypothetico deductive method as per the wikipedia article on same: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetic ... tive_model

But every prediction Robert has made (step #3) is so vague, so general, it could be used to predict any hypothesis. Don't even mention step #4 -- if I recall correctly he has even said that it is not his job to find arguments against his hypothesis.

See also Sandmel's article on parallelomania. Murdock's and Robert's parallels are exactly of the kind Sandmel is talking about.
if I recall correctly he has even said that it is not his job to find arguments against his hypothesis.
Wait a minute. I am no scholar and not the sharpest knife in the drawer but isn't that going against some type of historical methodology?
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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neilgodfrey wrote:
The Crow wrote:In what ways are they flawed Neil? Do you believe there is astrological symbolism in the Bible?
Of course there is astrological symbolism in the Bible. I have written about some of it, especially in the Book of Revelation. But it's nonsense to suggest that all astrological symbolism supports the thesis of astrotheology. But I have no desire to repeat the content I covered in so many exchanges with Robert a little while ago in other threads such as the Loaves and Fishes one or that I have covered in my blog. I leave it to Robert to show the answers he has raised to my questions and to the questions I raised he failed to answer.
Neil got any quick links to your blog on this? Would like to read it.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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The Crow wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:
The Crow wrote:In what ways are they flawed Neil? Do you believe there is astrological symbolism in the Bible?
Of course there is astrological symbolism in the Bible. I have written about some of it, especially in the Book of Revelation. But it's nonsense to suggest that all astrological symbolism supports the thesis of astrotheology. But I have no desire to repeat the content I covered in so many exchanges with Robert a little while ago in other threads such as the Loaves and Fishes one or that I have covered in my blog. I leave it to Robert to show the answers he has raised to my questions and to the questions I raised he failed to answer.
Neil got any quick links to your blog on this? Would like to read it.
http://vridar.org/2011/06/11/the-book-o ... standings/

http://vridar.org/?s=%22Tulip%22

Robert started the Loaves and Fishes thread to address some of the criticisms I was making of his thesis and to try to provide the best case evidence for it. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=471
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Thor
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by Thor »

neilgodfrey wrote:Perhaps I should add that the arguments I have seen for Jesus being invented as a solar allegory are logically flawed and cannot compete with published scholarly interpretations of the same evidence.
Being invented implies created with intention to serve a purpose. If viewed from the perspective of development like all other religions and myths usually are, the solar allegory is actually expected to be found. I see no problems with arguing it being present. But to which extent one can create broader theories is a completely different matter.

Perhaps this piece can provide some illumination to subject at hand.


From Ad Nationes by Tertullian :
Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have even admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and for banqueting. By resorting to these customs, you deliberately deviate from your own religious rites to those of strangers. For the Jewish feasts on the Sabbath and “the Purification,” and Jewish also are the ceremonies of the lamps, and the fasts of unleavened bread, and the “littoral prayers,” all which institutions and practices are of course foreign from your gods. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.i ... .xiii.html
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neilgodfrey
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

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Thor wrote: If viewed from the perspective of development like all other religions and myths usually are, the solar allegory is actually expected to be found. I see no problems with arguing it being present. But to which extent one can create broader theories is a completely different matter.

Perhaps this piece can provide some illumination to subject at hand.
Finding an allegory (I would even go back further and look at Pliny's letter as earlier evidence for what you quote from Tertullian) is not the same as finding the origins of Christianity. We need to lay out all the evidence and then proceed from there. We can't just discard all the evidence except one piece we need upon which to build our entire edifice to incorporate everything else.
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The Crow
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by The Crow »

http://vridar.org/2011/06/11/the-book-o ... standings/

http://vridar.org/?s=%22Tulip%22

Robert started the Loaves and Fishes thread to address some of the criticisms I was making of his thesis and to try to provide the best case evidence for it. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=471[/quote]

Thanks for that Neil. A lot there to digest.
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Re: Does anyone have On the Historicity of Jesus yet?

Post by The Crow »

Thor wrote:
neilgodfrey wrote:Perhaps I should add that the arguments I have seen for Jesus being invented as a solar allegory are logically flawed and cannot compete with published scholarly interpretations of the same evidence.
Being invented implies created with intention to serve a purpose. If viewed from the perspective of development like all other religions and myths usually are, the solar allegory is actually expected to be found. I see no problems with arguing it being present. But to which extent one can create broader theories is a completely different matter.

Perhaps this piece can provide some illumination to subject at hand.


From Ad Nationes by Tertullian :
Others, with greater regard to good manners, it must be confessed, suppose that the sun is the god of the Christians, because it is a well-known fact that we pray towards the east, or because we make Sunday a day of festivity. What then? Do you do less than this? Do not many among you, with an affectation of sometimes worshiping the heavenly bodies likewise, move your lips in the direction of the sunrise? It is you, at all events, who have even admitted the sun into the calendar of the week; and you have selected its day, in preference to the preceding day as the most suitable in the week for either an entire abstinence from the bath, or for its postponement until the evening, or for taking rest and for banqueting. By resorting to these customs, you deliberately deviate from your own religious rites to those of strangers. For the Jewish feasts on the Sabbath and “the Purification,” and Jewish also are the ceremonies of the lamps, and the fasts of unleavened bread, and the “littoral prayers,” all which institutions and practices are of course foreign from your gods. Wherefore, that I may return from this digression, you who reproach us with the sun and Sunday should consider your proximity to us. We are not far off from your Saturn and your days of rest.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.i ... .xiii.html
Necessity is the mother of invention. With or without any real "christ figure" to base their beliefs on they naturally turned to the one thing they observed daily, the sky. In my opinion and mine only the "Sun" played a central role.
Having ascribed to the imaginary incarnations of God Sol the characteristics of heaven-descending, virgin-born, earth-walking, wonder-working, dying, resuscitated and ascending sons of God, the ancient Astrologers attached to them the several titles of Saviour, Redeemer, Avatar, Divine-Helper, Shiloh, Messiah, Christ; and, in reference to their foster-father, that of Son of Man.
Hill, J. H. (2012-05-16). Astral Worship (pp. 34-35). . Kindle Edition.
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