a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

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Giuseppe
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a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

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In short:
  • (1) the episode Barabbas proves beyond any doubt the priority of the Evangelion on our canonical gospels.
  • (2) Joseph Turmel has proved that the Fourth Gospel is a clumsy proto-Catholic corruption of a gospel written by Marcion's disciples.

  • (3) The existence of a "biography" of John the Baptist is demonstrated by three independent facts:
    • (3.1) the Evangelion assumes that his readers knew already about the John's baptism without bothering to introduce it.
    • (3.2) The episodes of the Birth and Childhood in Matthew and Luke originally referred to the birth of the True Prophet John.
    • (3.3) We have independent evidence of John's fame as the true Messiah and the propaganda in this regard by his disciples:

      “And, behold, one of the disciples of John asserted that John was the Christ, and not Jesus, inasmuch as Jesus Himself declared that John was greater than all men and all prophets.’If, then, ‘said he, ‘he be greater than all, he must be held to be greater than Moses, and than Jesus himself. But if he be the greatest of all, then must he be the Christ.’

      (Recognitions 1:60)

      …ad, obviously, too much interested emphasis, in our Gospels, to deny that John was confused with Jesus called Christ.

Note that:

I had promised to Peter (not Cephas) the proof of the point (3.2).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

So Robert Stahl:

Before tackling his theme, which is the story of the life of Jesus, the Third Gospel begins by giving, as a prelude, a very circumstantiated account of the birth of John the Baptist. In a magazine article published in 1896, [1] DANIEL VOELTER, professor of theology in Amsterdam, sought to demonstrate that the Christian elements of this story are superimposed on an older document, "undoubtedly deriving from the disciples of the Baptist" .In a book published in 1911, [2] Voelter completed the presentation of his thesis, and in 1924 he was followed by NORDEN who, in his Geburt des Kindes, declares about this story: «Nobody doubts that it comes from the groups of the followers of the Baptist ».


[1] Theol. Tydschrift 30, p. 224-269.

[2] Die evangelische Erzählung von der Geburt und Kindheit Jesu (Strasbourg).

(my translation from The mandeans and Christian origins, my bold)
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

Stahl:
1:15. "He shall be Nazir." The Greek manuscripts give "He will be great" (megas), as in 1:32, but in both cases the source was supposed to say, "He will be Nazir," that is, consecrated to God. The following sentence specifies that he will abstain from wine and strong drinks, an essential condition of Nazireate, and the word Nazir is expressly mentioned in the story of Samson (Judges 13), which served as a model for the present episode. The Hebrew word Nazir may also have the meaning of "prince", and it is by this second meaning that the adaptor wanted to translate it as "great", out of respect for its readers of pagan origin who would not have understood the Nazir term. The same happens in 1:32, which in our hypothesis applied first to John and which in our reconstruction is presented in the same context.

In 1:35 and 2:23, which in our hypothesis originally applied to John and which are linked together by the formula "he shall be called" (klêthêsetai), the present text replaced the Nazir word with its literal translation "holy, consecrated". Evidence that there was originally Nazir in 2:23 is provided by the parallel Matthew 2:23 who kept the Nazir word, modifying it slightly to allow an allusion to Nazareth:

Luke 2:23
"According to what is written in the law of Yahweh: "every firstborn male shall be called: consecrated to Yahweh.

Matthew 2:23
"In order that what was said by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called Nazarene.


For the nazir John, the rite of consecration of the firstborn ("Consecrate every firstborn among the children of Israel", Exodus 13:2) is done in the form of a Nazireate for life ("For all the time of his Nazireate he shall be consecrated to Yahweh", Numbers 6:8). The two rites are confused into one.

Matthew, who seeks in the life of Jesus the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament, has taken the future "will be called" for a prophecy, which is why he believes he must cite prophecies instead of the law. In the word "Nazir" he sees an allusion to Nazareth, and the passage thus becomes a prophecy indicating the name of the village where Jesus was to spend his childhood. The little confusion between the law and the prophets committed by Matthew has misled the exegetes so well that they have wasted in pure loss treasures of erudition to find the trace of the supposedly lost prophecy that would have quoted Matthew.

...to be continued
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

Now this is a smoking gun:

the archangelic news for Zechariah have to precede the archangelic news for Elizabeth, since the visions of Zechariah and Elizabeth had to parallel originally the visions of Simeon and Anna.

But the parallelism is destroyed by "Luke" (editor) replacing the archangelic news for Elizabeth by the archangelic news for Mary.

The collateral effect is monstrous:

if Zechariah was made silent by the angel Gabriel (his true sin: marcionism):

And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time.

(1:20)

...then how could he of grace make the same Elizabeth know magically, in the total absence of archangelic news for Elizabeth (once they were trasnformed in archangelic news for Mary), that her son will be called John ?

On the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they were going to name him after his father Zechariah, but his mother spoke up and said, “No! He is to be called John.”

(1:59-60)

Best answer: Elizabeth knew independently from the silent idiot Zechariah, because in the original source the archangelic news (about her future son and his name) were for her (=Elizabeth), not for Mary.

The forger "Luke" has betrayed himself with this evident error. He wanted to co-opt the episodes related to John to carnalize Jesus, against Marcion (and note the entire consensus is already with me in defining the Prologue as Anti-Marcionite).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by neilgodfrey »

The most obvious answer to how Elizabeth knew the son's name was to be John was that her husband told her -- the same scene tells us that he was well able to communicate by writing!
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Giuseppe
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

But Zechariah revealed the name by writing it in the verse 63. Whereas Elizabeth knew already it just three verses before (in the verse 60). This is a further confirmation that the archangelic news were for her, not for Mary: only so she could know the name in advance, without any help by her husband.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

Luke 1:26
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee….

The parents of Jesus are introduced en passant, differently from the parents of John.

The lost archangelic news for Elizabeth are doubled in:
  • archangelic news for Mary
  • Mary gives the news for Elizabeth, now, and not more the archangel in her place
Originally, the movements of the child John were a reaction to the archangelic news, not to Mary: the reaction was the sign that the Spirit was going to possess John from his birth, according to the same archangelic news for Zechariah.

"Luke" (editor) transformed the John's reaction to the Archangel in a John's submission to the embryonic Jesus.

The words of Gabriel in Luke 1:28:

And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace;


you have found grace with God

...were originally reserved for Elizabeth and not for Mary, since the name "John" means: "it is YHWH who gives grace". Hence Elizabeth has to be "full of grace". She, and not Mary, has found "grace" with YHWH.
The play of names is lost, once Jesus/Mary replace John/Elizabeth as interlocutors of the archangel.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Subject: Was the birth story in Luke/Matthew originally referred to John the Baptist
Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:38 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:22 am The original author, by saying that:

Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.

(Luke 1:41)
...was introducing the fact that, as effect of the spiritual possession, Elizabeth will sing the Magnificat, and not the interpolated Mary.
I am not sure you have mentioned it yet, but just in case: there is a textual variant at Luke 1.46 which credits Elizabeth with singing the Magnificat and not Mary. This variant, found mainly/only in Old Latin manuscripts, is supported by two of the Latin manuscripts of Irenaeus, Against Heresies 4.7.1: http://textexcavation.com/documents/images/ah4p013.jpg (although earlier, in 3.10.2, I think all manuscripts agree in crediting Mary). More information here: https://books.google.com/books?id=yZF1B ... 22&f=false.
Just in case it has not come up yet.
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Giuseppe
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Giuseppe »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:40 am
Just in case it has not come up yet.
In this thread I am reporting gradually the Stahl's arguments, and in addition, I am arguing also that the existence of a sacred biography about John the Baptist removes the objection raised by Stuart against absolute Marcionite priority:
Stuart wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:46 pmYou have to go back to claiming the Marcionites wrote the ur-Gospel. But that doesn't work, since John's Baptism of Jesus is found in thay, and the Marcionite text removed it.
...since, by that biography, it was common knowledge, in the Christian world, the fact that a baptism was connected with John in pre-Gospel times. No need, for Marcion, of a complete intoduction of it in the Earliest Gospel.

But note that the existence of that "biography" of John the Baptist doesn't prove the historical existence of John the Baptist. I agree with Stahl about this particular point.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Charles Wilson
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Re: a biography of John the Baptist as solution of an apparent dilemma

Post by Charles Wilson »

Luke 1: 26, 27 - 29, 32, 35 (RSV):

[26] In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

https://studybible.info/strongs/H5341 . Naw-Tsar' => "Naw-Tsar'-[eth]", "Guard-Town". [Edit Note: "As the priests were numerous and scattered throughout Palestine, it was impossible for all of them to officiate at the same time. An arrangement was therefore made whereby they were divided (in the final stage) regionally into 24 mishmarot (lit. "guards"; Ta'an. 4:2), which served in a regular weekly rotation...."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/mi ... -ma-amadot . See the Important Uzi Leibner, Settlement..., for a VERY detailed examination of the Galilean Priestly Settlements. ISBN-13: 978-3161498718 ISBN-10: 3161498712 ]

Luke is hiding something. The Hasmoneans assigned Settlements to the Mishmarot Priesthood. In GALILEE. With which of the 24 Settlements was the Original Hebrew/Aramaic Story concerned?

***JOKE***JOKE***JOKE***JOKE***JOKE***
[27] to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
[28] And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"
[29] But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.

Yeah, no kidding!!!
***END JOKE***END JOKE***END JOKE***

[32] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;
and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,

Ummm, "Lord God"???
"Vhat kindt of NAME ist "Lord God"?"

[35] And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born will be called holy,
the Son of God.

OH!!! THAT Lord God!!! As in "Our master and our god bids that this be done"

(Suetonius, 12 Caesars, "Domitian" https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/ ... tian*.html ).
[Edit Note: Other Translations are more explicit in Confirmation of the use of "Lord God":
"With equal arrogance, when he dictated the form of a letter to be used by his procurators, he began it thus: “Our lord and god commands so and so..."
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6400/6400-h/6400-h.htm]

The Holy Spirit => "Domitian".
Last edited by Charles Wilson on Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:13 am, edited 7 times in total.
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