Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

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Bernard Muller
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Bernard Muller » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:12 pm

to John D.L.,
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:29 pm
Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:18 pm
Opinions, opinions. Marcion's gospel was drawn from Luke. There is evidence pointing to that, such as exposed here: http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
Marcion, active in the Christian world from around 130, had a gospel called 'gospel of the Lord'. For orthodox fathers of the Church, like Irenaeus of Lyons, Tertullian and Epiphanius of Salamis, this gospel was the product of a mutilation of gLuke.
Well damn boy, I guess you win.
I stated the fact. I did not say these 3 "father" were right yet. But later, in the my aforementioned web page (second half), I showed they were not lying, thanks to the internal evidence.

Cordially, Bernard
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John2
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by John2 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:02 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:53 pm

It is not Hebrew Matthew but logia in Hebrew attributed to Matthew by Papias' writings, when that Matthew was not attributed the any gospel yet.



I understand that logia can be interpreted to mean that Papias is not referring to a gospel, but it can also be interpreted to mean that he is, and that makes the most sense to me not only from the context but also because that is how everyone who had access to Papias' writings in antiquity (and thus had even more to go on than we do) understood it.


What I mean by the Ebionite Matthew is the Greek gospel used and called Matthew by Ebionites that Epiphanius cites and which resembles parts of Luke. To account for this similarity, I think Luke and the Ebionite Matthew incorporated one of the translations that had been made of the Hebrew Matthew.

This is matter of opinion based on very fragile & debatable clues.



I can set aside the Ebionite Matthew in this discussion. I was only wanting to clarify what I understand the Ebionite Matthew to be.

How do you know Luke wrote multiple drafts of her gospel?

I don't know, I just think that it's not out of the question and would explain the existence of Marcion's gospel and the variant versions of Luke that I gather existed among the orthodox.
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Stuart » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:01 pm

Bernard,

With all due respect you simply dodge the vocabulary problem.

It's a non answer.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:25 pm

I stated the fact.
Così è, se vi pare!
I did not say these 3 "father" were right yet. But later, in the my aforementioned web page (second half), I showed they were not lying, thanks to the internal evidence.
Same tired trite we've heard since Tertullian. Weird how Papias, Polycarp, Hegesippus and Justin just seem to ignore this fact. You know, the people who were alive when Marcion was too? Luke doesn't even exist to them.

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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:52 pm

to Stuart,
Stuart wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:01 pm
Bernard,

With all due respect you simply dodge the vocabulary problem.

It's a non answer.
No, I did not. I answered about the two occurrences of the so-called Lukan favorite words.
For the 50 words, I asked for more data you may know (as from a book or a video accessible from the internet). No answer from your part. Are you dodging the problem?
Can you educate me on that point? Are these words in passages of Luke attested in the Marcionite text?
Cordially, Bernard
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Bernard Muller
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Bernard Muller » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:53 am

to Joseph D.L.,
Same tired trite we've heard since Tertullian. Weird how Papias, Polycarp, Hegesippus and Justin just seem to ignore this fact. You know, the people who were alive when Marcion was too? Luke doesn't even exist to them.
Irenaeus was a young man when Marcion was still alive.
Tertullian and Irenaeus certainly knew about the gospel attributed to "Luke".
Justin quoted stuff which shows only in Luke.
More about external evidence of the existence of the gospel later attributed to "Luke": http://historical-jesus.info/62.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Bernard Muller » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:21 pm

to John2,
I understand that logia can be interpreted to mean that Papias is not referring to a gospel, but it can also be interpreted to mean that he is, and that makes the most sense to me not only from the context but also because that is how everyone who had access to Papias' writings in antiquity (and thus had even more to go on than we do) understood it.
Everyone is only 3 authors. And It is far from certain that Origen and Jerome read Papias.

Matthew also issued a written gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.
— Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:1 [c.175-185 A.D.]

The first is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an emissary of Yeshua the Messiah, who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew.
— Origen circa 210 CE, quoted by Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 6:25

Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed. Who translated it after that in Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Moreover, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian city of Beroea to copy it.
— Jerome: De viris inlustribus (On Illustrious Men), chapter III.[7]

He (Shaul) being a Hebrew wrote in Hebrew, that is, his own tongue and most fluently; while things which were eloquently written in Hebrew were more eloquently turned into Greek.
— Jerome, 382 CE, On Illustrious Men, Book V

Cordially, Bernard
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:15 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:21 pm
to John2,
I understand that logia can be interpreted to mean that Papias is not referring to a gospel, but it can also be interpreted to mean that he is, and that makes the most sense to me not only from the context but also because that is how everyone who had access to Papias' writings in antiquity (and thus had even more to go on than we do) understood it.
Everyone is only 3 authors. And It is far from certain that Origen and Jerome read Papias.

Matthew also issued a written gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.
— Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:1 [c.175-185 A.D.]

The first is written according to Matthew, the same that was once a tax collector, but afterwards an emissary of Yeshua the Messiah, who having published it for the Jewish believers, wrote it in Hebrew.
— Origen circa 210 CE, quoted by Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 6:25

Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed. Who translated it after that in Greek is not sufficiently ascertained. Moreover, the Hebrew itself is preserved to this day in the library at Caesarea, which the martyr Pamphilus so diligently collected. I also was allowed by the Nazarenes who use this volume in the Syrian city of Beroea to copy it.
— Jerome: De viris inlustribus (On Illustrious Men), chapter III.[7]

He (Shaul) being a Hebrew wrote in Hebrew, that is, his own tongue and most fluently; while things which were eloquently written in Hebrew were more eloquently turned into Greek.
— Jerome, 382 CE, On Illustrious Men, Book V

Cordially, Bernard
If the category is church fathers who thought that Matthew had written a gospel in Hebrew, you can add to the list:

Eusebius, History of the Church 3.24.6: For Matthew, who had at first preached to the Hebrews, when he was about to go to other peoples, committed his gospel to writing in his native tongue, and thus compensated those whom he was obliged to leave for the loss of his presence.

From Ephraem, Commentary on the Diatessaron: Matthew the Hebrew wrote this, and behold it was turned into Greek. .... Matthew wrote the gospel in Hebrew, Mark in Latin from Simon in the city of Rome, Luke in Greek; John (at last) wrote it because he remained in the world until the time of Trajan.

Epiphanius, Panarion 51.5.1-3a: 3a As I said, Matthew was privileged to be the first [to issue] the gospel, and this was absolutely right. Because he had repented of many sins and had risen from the receipt of custom and followed him who came for the salvation of man and said: I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance, it was the duty of Matthew to present the message of salvation as an example for us, who would be saved like this man who was restored in the tax office and turned from his iniquity. From him men would learn the graciousness of the advent of Christ. For after the forgiveness of his sins it was granted him to raise the dead, cleanse leprosy, and work miracles of healing and cast out devils, so that he would not merely persuade his hearers by his speech but preach good tidings with actual deeds, to the perishing the tidings of their salvation through repentance; to the fallen the tidings that they would arise; and to the dead the tidings that they would be quickened. Matthew himself wrote and issued the gospel in the Hebrew alphabet, and did not begin at the beginning, but rather traced the pedigree of Christ from Abraham.

From pseudo-Athanasius, Synopsis of Sacred Scripture: The gospel according to Matthew was written by Matthew himself in the Hebrew dialect and was published in Jerusalem, but translated by James the brother of the Lord according to the flesh, who was appointed bishop by the holy apostles in Jerusalem.

Not vouching for the truth value of any of these passages, nor for their necessary dependence upon Papias. Just filling out the list a bit.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Secret Alias » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:38 pm

From Ephraem, Commentary on the Diatessaron:
Not sure that the understanding goes back to Ephrem who used a harmony gospel. The comments about the four are likely from someone after Ephrem's time.
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John2
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Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by John2 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:47 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:21 pm
to John2,
I understand that logia can be interpreted to mean that Papias is not referring to a gospel, but it can also be interpreted to mean that he is, and that makes the most sense to me not only from the context but also because that is how everyone who had access to Papias' writings in antiquity (and thus had even more to go on than we do) understood it.
Everyone is only 3 authors. And It is far from certain that Origen and Jerome read Papias.

I was thinking of Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria (possibly) and Eusebius. And even if "only" two of them count, that would be enough for me.

I'd like to ask you something about your idea that Mark knew "Q," though. It sounds to me like you take what Papias says about Matthew seriously, i.e., that Matthew wrote something about Jesus in Hebrew (which in your view was "Q"). But Papias also says where Mark got his information, i.e., from Peter, and he says that the reason his gospel was "not in order" was because that is how Peter taught. So if Mark learned about Jesus' "sayings or doings" (i.e., logia) from Peter, why would he need Matthew's logia, and if he did use Matthew's logia, why doesn't Papias say so? It seems to me like you are creating an unsupported and unnecessary step.
Look at the sky, look at the river, isn't it good? Winding, finding places to go.

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