Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by John2 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:33 pm

I don't know how to make a fancy chart but I see things this way. Mark and the Hebrew Matthew (aka "the gospel of the Hebrews") were written first (in whichever order), then multiple translations were made of the Hebrew Matthew, parts of which (along with Mark) were incorporated into the NT Matthew (making it effectively the first gospel harmony), and parts of which (along with Mark and perhaps the NT Matthew) were incorporated into Luke. (And as an aside, I think one or more translations of the Hebrew Matthew were also incorporated into the Ebionite Matthew.)

I'm not sure where to place John yet (other than sometime after Mark and the Hebrew Matthew), but as far as the synoptics go, my "chart" then is:


1. Mark and the Hebrew Matthew (in whichever order)

2. Multiple translations of the Hebrew Matthew

3. The NT Matthew (which incorporated Mark and parts of one or more translations of the Hebrew Matthew)

4. Luke (which incorporated Mark and parts of one or more translations of the Hebrew Matthew and perhaps also the NT Matthew)


While I used to see none of the gospels as being pre-70 CE, I'm becoming more open to that possibility with respect to Mark and the Hebrew Matthew. And I suspect that Luke was written c. 95 CE by Josephus' patron Epaphroditus and that he is the person of the same name that Paul mentions in Philippians and the person with the same name who was executed by Domitian during the time he persecuted Christians. So I think all of the synoptics were written by c. 100 CE, which is more or less the consensus but with a different "how."
Look at the sky, look at the river, isn't it good? Winding, finding places to go.

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7506
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:26 pm

John2 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:33 pm
I don't know how to make a fancy chart but I see things this way.
How does this look?

John2's Gospels.png
John2's Gospels.png (21.25 KiB) Viewed 1582 times
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:28 pm

Do you use a special program for these charts? I'm using Microsoft paint. :/

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7506
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:30 pm

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:28 pm
Do you use a special program for these charts? I'm using Microsoft paint. :/
I just use draw.io.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 7506
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:31 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:30 pm
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:28 pm
Do you use a special program for these charts? I'm using Microsoft paint. :/
I just use draw.io.
Well, actually, I guess they are trying to route people through diagrams.net now, but I still use the old URL.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1045
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:33 pm

I don't want to start stealing your style. I'm already being accused of ripping off SA. lol
Last edited by Joseph D. L. on Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John2
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 4:42 pm

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by John2 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:11 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:26 pm
How does this look?
Ha! Very cool (and unexpected). :)
Look at the sky, look at the river, isn't it good? Winding, finding places to go.

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3320
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:35 pm

to Gorit Maqueda,
Gorit Maqueda wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:02 am
I found this interesting:
https://vridar.org/2020/03/11/a-semitic ... d-matthew/
Yes, the examples by Jean Carmignac on imitations from Hebrew to Greek (most of them in Mark) are very troubling for me.
But "Mark" would be translations (as judging from the English rendition) do not show he 'tortured' them in order to fit the Hebrew.
On the plus side Neil Godfrey concluded on another post, after some research, that "Luke" did not know about Matthew. I found that out from my own study by different ways.
I keep this post short because of pain.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Bernard Muller
Posts: 3320
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Bernard Muller » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:16 pm

to John2
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:26 pm
John2 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:33 pm
I don't know how to make a fancy chart but I see things this way.
How does this look?
...
With Q, there is no need for Hebrew Matthew, and multiple translations, and Greek Matthew.
What evidence do you have for multiple translations in the make up of Greek Mathew? That's what I asked in my OP (by the way, I have two examples in Q). What happened to Ben's proto-Luke, Marcion's gospel?

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

Stuart
Posts: 578
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:24 am
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: Matthew's gospel first written in Hebrew?

Post by Stuart » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:54 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:16 pm
to John2
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:26 pm
John2 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:33 pm
I don't know how to make a fancy chart but I see things this way.
How does this look?
...
With Q, there is no need for Hebrew Matthew, and multiple translations, and Greek Matthew.
What evidence do you have for multiple translations in the make up of Greek Mathew? That's what I asked in my OP (by the way, I have two examples in Q). What happened to Ben's proto-Luke, Marcion's gospel?

Cordially, Bernard
There is hardly any model that requires a Hebrew Matthew.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

Post Reply