The fasting of Jesus is anti-marcionite, too

[Giuseppe]

But you have not given sufficient evidence as to why your view is correct.

I don't consider so necessary (to prove my thesis) to prove that the single man named Marcion if he even existed, believed this. He could be the first heretical idiot who understood Sheol as Capernaum a mere city of Galilee, so making it more easy the great mistake and confusion between Sheol and earth. What matters for me, what satisfies me and my sincere desire of knowledge (if even I am able of 'sincerity' in this field), is that, assuming the equation Capernaum==Sheol, I can decipher very easily:

• 1) why the Sheol's myth in Marcion as reported by Ireneus was the incipit of the Earliest Gospel

• 2) why the first Jesus appeared on earth, in a version of the Earliest Gospel, was the Jesus returned from Sheol (hence: after the Sheol's myth in Marcion is happened)

• 3) why Mark is eclipsing that incipit with his earthly version of the Sheol's myth in Marcion.

• 4) details as: why Bar-Abbas was in prison before he was freed by Pilate, and why Herod put the elegant robe on Jesus.

[Joseph D. L.]

I don't consider so necessary (to prove my thesis) to prove that the single man named Marcion if he even existed, believed this. He could be the first heretical idiot who understood Sheol as Capernaum a mere city of Galilee, so making it more easy the great mistake and confusion between Sheol and earth. What matters for me, what satisfies me and my sincere desire of knowledge (if even I am able of 'sincerity' in this field), is that, assuming the equation Capernaum==Sheol... "

If Marcion believed Capernaum was just a city in Galilee and not Sheol/hell then that DOES take away from your argument. Actually, it disproves it right there.

I can decipher very easily:

• 1) why the Sheol's myth in Marcion as reported by Ireneus was the incipit of the Earliest Gospel

• 2) why the first Jesus appeared on earth, in a version of the Earliest Gospel, was the Jesus returned from Sheol (hence: after the Sheol's myth in Marcion is happened)

• 3) why Mark is eclipsing that incipit with his earthly version of the Sheol's myth in Marcion.

• 4) details as: why Bar-Abbas was in prison before he was freed by Pilate, and why Herod put the elegant robe on Jesus.

All of this is circular.

1) Irenaeus could just be making stuff up.

2) This is putting the cart before the horse.

3) There's no reason to think this.

4) You're reading into the text things that were never even thought of.

[Giuseppe]

Finding in Internet on google "Nicodemus Capernaum", I find in particular clues of a story where Joseph of Arimathea goes to buy the shroud in the market-place of Capernaum. Hence, again the idea occurs about Capernaum==Sheol.

If Marcion believed Capernaum was just a city in Galilee and not Sheol/hell then that DOES take away from your argument

again, the single man Marcion is not necessary to my thesis. If Marcion was a idiot historicist as you are advancing, then I can always assume that Cerdon (or Satornilos, or Menander) wrote "Chrestos descended in the place of desolation" and the idiot disciple Marcion understood "Christos descended in Capernaum, city of Galilee".

A confusion had to be born, between Sheol and Capernaum, before or after. That is precisely expected under my theory.

[Giuseppe]

Prof Paul Nadim Tarazi (of the Paulinist school of tought) writes that Capernaum in Mark is

"symbol of the domain of Judaism"

.

https://books.google.it/books?id=sgZwU- ... um&f=false

For me, it is the symbol of the domain of the demiurge: the Sheol.

Sheol is under the dominion of YHWH (1 Sam. 2:6; Amos 9:2)


The OT prophets in the Marcion's Sheol's myth, work precisely as Judaizers.

[Ben C. Smith]

No, Justin also reports the same myth about Marcion.

He doesn't. These are the only two instances where Justin refers to Marcion and his doctrine:

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works.

///

And, as we said before, the devils put forward Marcion of Pontus, who is even now teaching men to deny that God is the maker of all things in heaven and on earth, and that the Christ predicted by the prophets is His Son, and preaches another god besides the Creator of all, and likewise another son. And this man many have believed, as if he alone knew the truth, and laugh at us, though they have no proof of what they say, but are carried away irrationally as lambs by a wolf, and become the prey of atheistical doctrines, and of devils. For they who are called devils attempt nothing else than to seduce men from God who made them, and from Christ His first-begotten; and those who are unable to raise themselves above the earth they have riveted, and do now rivet, to things earthly, and to the works of their own hands; but those who devote themselves to the contemplation of things divine, they secretly beat back; and if they have not a wise sober-mindedness, and a pure and passionless life, they drive them into godlessness.

That's it.

Justin, if I remember correctly, does infer the descent into hell belief, but doesn't attribute it to Marcion.

Two independent witnesses of the same myth held by a rival sect. Differently from you, I don't like to judaize Marcion (it is no an insult, only a lucid observation of what if for me the your view).

But you have not given sufficient evidence as to why your view is correct.

Nor is Irenaeus independent of Justin to begin with.

[Giuseppe]

Nor is Irenaeus independent of Justin to begin with.

of all the possible objections, it is the less credible. Should I remember the other source, where among the OT prophets in Sheol there is surprisingly also John the Baptist, and even more surprisingly, the particular question they (and not only John) ask to Jesus:

19. Death was struck with dismay on beholding a new visitant descend into Hades, not bound by the chains of that place. Why, O porters of Hades, were you scared at sight of Him? What was the unwonted fear that possessed you? Death fled, and his flight betrayed his cowardice. The holy prophets ran unto Him, and Moses the Lawgiver, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; David also, and Samuel, and Esaias, and John the Baptist, who bore witness when he asked, Are You He that should come, or look we for another Matthew 11:3? All the Just were ransomed, whom death had swallowed; for it behooved the King whom they had proclaimed, to become the redeemer of His noble heralds. Then each of the Just said, O death, where is your victory? O grave, where is your sting ? For the Conqueror has redeemed us.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310114.htm

Here is evident how the Sheol became the "prison" of John the Baptist. Hence I have another independent transformation of a mythical place in an earthly place.

[Ben C. Smith]

Nor is Irenaeus independent of Justin to begin with.

of all the possible objections, it is the less credible.

If the fair and accurate handling of evidence is of no importance, then yes, you are right: my objection carries no weight. My objection would be of interest if and only if one cares about getting things right.

[Joseph D. L.]

Finding in Internet on google "Nicodemus Capernaum", I find in particular clues of a story where Joseph of Arimathea goes to buy the shroud in the market-place of Capernaum. Hence, again the idea occurs about Capernaum==Sheol.

https://books.google.com/books?id=xRdEA ... ud&f=false

The problem here in relation to your theory is that Capernaum and Hell/Sheol are two distinct places.

again, the single man Marcion is not necessary to my thesis. If Marcion was a idiot historicist as you are advancing, then I can always assume that Cerdon (or Satornilos, or Menander) wrote "Chrestos descended in the place of desolation" and the idiot disciple Marcion understood "Christos descended in Capernaum, city of Galilee".

It just seems like you're playing hot potato in shifting the attribution from Marcion to whomever you can find. We don't know anything about Cerdon, Menander, Saternilus, Basilides, Marcus, Valentinus, Simon Magus, Cerinthus, Polycarp, Elder John, Papias, Ignatius, etc, outside of what writers said of them. These men are complete mystery to us.

My views on Marcion is that he believed the spirit of Isu Chrestos had manifested within Paul. If he and Paul were even two different people. For all we know Paul and Marcion are the same person, or aliases for Aquila and Hadrian, or someone else entirely. (Hadrian was known to travel a lot, and partake in the local mysteries, all things to all men). That's the problem with making absolute claims on a topic that we don't have good evidence for. We can make theories, even good theories, but that's it.

A confusion had to be born, between Sheol and Capernaum, before or after. That is precisely expected under my theory.

[/quote]

I don't dispute the idea that Capernaum was viewed as an allegory by later Christians. (Heracleon did). The problem is trying to prove this as the first idea.

[Giuseppe]

We don't know anything about Cerdon

it is not totally true. Someone said that Marcion inherited from Cerdon his hostility against the demiurge et similia. Hence his same Gospel could derive from him.

I don't dispute the idea that Capernaum was viewed as an allegory by later Christians. (Heracleon did). The problem is trying to prove this as the first idea.

I am satisfied by the fact that the idea works. Differently from other ideas, it works. It allows to explain the entire chapter 1 of Mark.

[Giuseppe]

Prof Klinghardt thinks that Marcion inherited his Gospel from previous people, while prof Vinzent thinks that Marcion wrote himself his Gospel ex nihilo.

Prof Klinghardt can support me here, insofar I can claim that Marcion inherited his Gospel from Cerdon, the best candidate for the role of who could give something to Marcion. Hence, Cerdon could have as incipit:

Jesus descended in the place of desolation

Whereas Marcion could have replaced "place of desolation" with "Capernaum":

Jesus descended in Capernaum

While later authors could have added:

Jesus descended in Capernaum, a city of Galilee.