A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Someone who spends a lot of time on their own buttressing an arbitrary opinion.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Hi Ben,
That Marcion truncated gLuke (and Pauline epistles) is also supported by the internal evidence:
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
http://historical-jesus.info/73.html
And your evidence is rather not existing concerning the making of Mk 16:9-20 (from parts of a thesis by MacDonald based on quasi- nothing)
As for gMarcion being derived from this proto-Luke, that's pure fancy, more so when proto-Luke is not evidenced to the slightest.
Yes, I would say the possibilities you are slicing are very fine, and not based on solid evidence. That's not my case.
Cordially, Bernard
The writings of Irenaeus, Tertullian & Epiphanius about gMarcion do not state patristic rumors.The trouble is that all of these suggestions is possible. We have no direct evidence for any of them (just external patristic rumors and internal directional indications), and the probabilities we are slicing are very fine.
That Marcion truncated gLuke (and Pauline epistles) is also supported by the internal evidence:
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
http://historical-jesus.info/73.html
And your evidence is rather not existing concerning the making of Mk 16:9-20 (from parts of a thesis by MacDonald based on quasi- nothing)
As for gMarcion being derived from this proto-Luke, that's pure fancy, more so when proto-Luke is not evidenced to the slightest.
Yes, I would say the possibilities you are slicing are very fine, and not based on solid evidence. That's not my case.
Cordially, Bernard
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- Ben C. Smith
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
What are you talking about? Do you have a patristic testimony in hand which is not a patristic rumor? None of them has direct knowledge of which gospel came first.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:20 pm Hi Ben,The writings of Irenaeus, Tertullian & Epiphanius about gMarcion do not state patristic rumors.The trouble is that all of these suggestions is possible. We have no direct evidence for any of them (just external patristic rumors and internal directional indications), and the probabilities we are slicing are very fine.
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Hi Ben,
Cordially, Bernard
I was not dealing with that when I wrote about the threesome. I brought them about the issue of Marcion truncating (& modifying) parts of Luke (and the Pauline epistles), which can be evidenced.What are you talking about? Do you have a patristic testimony in hand which is not a patristic rumor? None of them has direct knowledge of which gospel came first.
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Exactly. None of those three has direct information about Marcion truncating Luke. The (proto-)orthodox accused Marcion of doing so, but (according to Tertullian) Marcionites leveled the reverse accusation at the (proto-)orthodox: to wit, that they had augmented the Marcionite gospel.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:09 pm Hi Ben,I was not dealing with that when I wrote about the threesome. I brought them about the issue of Marcion truncating (& modifying) parts of Luke (and the Pauline epistles), which can be evidenced.What are you talking about? Do you have a patristic testimony in hand which is not a patristic rumor? None of them has direct knowledge of which gospel came first.
Cordially, Bernard
It is not as if I simply believe the Marcionites, either. The whole affair washes out to "we said, they said." It is all rumor and assumption, unless you have a direct testimony to the contrary.
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
And there are clear examples which contradict the 'cutting' narrative. The opening scene of the Marcionite gospel - seems to have arranged the material in an expansive way (i.e. reordering the two synagogue narratives in Nazareth and Capernaum in Luke, the flying Jesus references etc). The changing of name from Capernaum to Bethsaida as reported in Ephrem is another. The inclusion of material from Matthew (i.e. the antitheses, the reference to the blessedness of eunuchs etc). The accusation that Marcion 'cut' like a beaver (a Latin play on words between castrate and beaver) seems to be behind the emphasis on Marcion cutting, thus a stylistic choice rather than a factual one.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Hi Ben.
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
About Marcion not working from the initial writings of Paul, but from later edited texts of Romans and 1 & 2 Corinthians:
http://historical-jesus.info/73.html
Cordially, Bernard
Internal evidence about Marcion truncating gLuke:Exactly. None of those three has direct information about Marcion truncating Luke. The (proto-)orthodox accused Marcion of doing so, but (according to Tertullian) Marcionites leveled the reverse accusation at the (proto-)orthodox: to wit, that they had augmented the Marcionite gospel.
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
About Marcion not working from the initial writings of Paul, but from later edited texts of Romans and 1 & 2 Corinthians:
http://historical-jesus.info/73.html
That's very predictable: propaganda answered by counter propaganda. For me, that's meaningless about providing any information.Marcion truncating Luke ... but (according to Tertullian) Marcionites leveled the reverse accusation at the (proto-)orthodox: to wit, that they had augmented the Marcionite gospel
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Yes, I am aware (as you know) of your internal evidence. I even gave you at least one piece of it. You are supporting my contention that internal evidence is really all we have.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:44 pm Hi Ben.Internal evidence about Marcion truncating gLuke:Exactly. None of those three has direct information about Marcion truncating Luke. The (proto-)orthodox accused Marcion of doing so, but (according to Tertullian) Marcionites leveled the reverse accusation at the (proto-)orthodox: to wit, that they had augmented the Marcionite gospel.
http://historical-jesus.info/53.html
More internal evidence, some of it very good.About Marcion not working from the initial writings of Paul, but from later edited texts of Romans and 1 & 2 Corinthians:
http://historical-jesus.info/73.html
Yes, that is exactly my point. You are handing me the keys to the kingdom. The propaganda, which is the only external evidence we have, is worthless. Of course the orthodox said Marcion cut into an existing gospel; of course the Marcionites said that the orthodox augmented it. "We said, they said." Nothing but rumors and assumptions on both sides. All we are left with is internal evidence.That's very predictable: propaganda answered by counter propaganda. For me, that's meaningless about providing any information.Marcion truncating Luke ... but (according to Tertullian) Marcionites leveled the reverse accusation at the (proto-)orthodox: to wit, that they had augmented the Marcionite gospel
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
Hi Ben,
The patristic conclusion and the relevant internal evidence should be considered together.
Cordially, Bernard
The internal evidence supports what Irenaeus, Tertullian and Epiphanius thought about Marcion's gospel: Marcion truncated Luke after reading (and even studying) it. Furthermore Tertullian and Epiphanius read Marcion's gospel.Yes, I am aware (as you know) of your internal evidence. I even gave you at least one piece of it. You are supporting my contention that internal evidence is really all we have.
The patristic conclusion and the relevant internal evidence should be considered together.
Cordially, Bernard
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Re: A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
This is demonstrably illogical. If the internal evidence, to your eye, pointed in the other direction, then you would have to consider the Marcionites' conclusion together with your internal evidence. In other words, neither the patristic nor the Marcionite testimony means a thing on its own; our assessment is completely dependent upon what the internal evidence suggests.Bernard Muller wrote: ↑Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:17 pm Hi Ben,The internal evidence supports what Irenaeus, Tertullian and Epiphanius thought about Marcion's gospel: Marcion truncated Luke after reading (and even studying) it. Furthermore Tertullian and Epiphanius read Marcion's gospel.Yes, I am aware (as you know) of your internal evidence. I even gave you at least one piece of it. You are supporting my contention that internal evidence is really all we have.
The patristic conclusion and the relevant internal evidence should be considered together.
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