From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:50 am

andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:32 am
Rufus son of Bar Kokhba appears to be a Medieval legend see for example http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -kokba-war

Andrew Criddle
the coincidence of a Rufus as son of Simon is too much impossible to be ignored as a mere late coincidence. We are talking about Rufus, not about Alexander (a common name) .
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:02 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:50 am
andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:32 am
Rufus son of Bar Kokhba appears to be a Medieval legend see for example http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -kokba-war

Andrew Criddle
the coincidence of a Rufus as son of Simon is too much impossible to be ignored as a mere late coincidence. We are talking about Rufus, not about Alexander (a common name) .
From Wikipedia: "Rufus is one of the most common of the ancient Roman cognomina."

ETA: https://books.google.com/books?id=jyo_D ... 22&f=false.
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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:45 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:02 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:50 am
andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:32 am
Rufus son of Bar Kokhba appears to be a Medieval legend see for example http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -kokba-war

Andrew Criddle
the coincidence of a Rufus as son of Simon is too much impossible to be ignored as a mere late coincidence. We are talking about Rufus, not about Alexander (a common name) .
From Wikipedia: "Rufus is one of the most common of the ancient Roman cognomina."

ETA: https://books.google.com/books?id=jyo_D ... 22&f=false.
how much is probable that just a Simon Bar Kokhba was father of a Rufus? Are you not surprised by the coincidence? Really?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:51 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:45 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:02 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:50 am
andrewcriddle wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:32 am
Rufus son of Bar Kokhba appears to be a Medieval legend see for example http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... -kokba-war

Andrew Criddle
the coincidence of a Rufus as son of Simon is too much impossible to be ignored as a mere late coincidence. We are talking about Rufus, not about Alexander (a common name) .
From Wikipedia: "Rufus is one of the most common of the ancient Roman cognomina."

ETA: https://books.google.com/books?id=jyo_D ... 22&f=false.
how much is probable that just a Simon Bar Kokhba was father of a Rufus? Are you not surprised by the coincidence? Really?
Surprised by the coincidence? Not in the slightest. But that is only because it would be silly to be surprised by such a mundane occurrence.
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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 pm

De-contextualized, sure, it would be silly. But the occurrence twice of the same link Simon/Rufus in connection with a war symbol (the Roman cross) should surprise you. Doesn't it?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:04 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 pm
De-contextualized, sure, it would be silly. But the occurrence twice of the same link Simon/Rufus in connection with a war symbol (the Roman cross) should surprise you. Doesn't it?
What are you talking about? Be specific... and use primary sources.
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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:08 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:04 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 pm
De-contextualized, sure, it would be silly. But the occurrence twice of the same link Simon/Rufus in connection with a war symbol (the Roman cross) should surprise you. Doesn't it?
What are you talking about? Be specific... and use primary sources.
  • Simon of Cyrene in Mark's story + his son named Rufus + a Roman cross, often used to condemn Zealots + the possibility (denied or claimed, it doesn't matter here) of a substitution
  • Simon bar Kokhba + his son named Rufus + a war against Romans + the possibility (denied or claimed, it doesn't matter here) that Simon was crucified after the defeat or the death
Mere coincidence?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:10 pm

Note also that Simon bar Kokhba was cursed by the rabbis as Son of Lie. The Jewish punition for the cursed men is crucifixion of the corpse, per Deut.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Ben C. Smith » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:21 pm

Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:08 pm
Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:04 pm
Giuseppe wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 pm
De-contextualized, sure, it would be silly. But the occurrence twice of the same link Simon/Rufus in connection with a war symbol (the Roman cross) should surprise you. Doesn't it?
What are you talking about? Be specific... and use primary sources.
  • Simon of Cyrene in Mark's story + his son named Rufus + a Roman cross, often used to condemn Zealots + the possibility (denied or claimed, it doesn't matter here) of a substitution
  • Simon bar Kokhba + his son named Rufus + a war against Romans + the possibility (denied or claimed, it doesn't matter here) that Simon was crucified after the defeat or the death
Claimed by whom? Again, please be specific.

This is what I have found so far:

The fate of Bar Kochba himself is not clear, though the sources indicate that he most likely died in the final battle for Beitar or shortly before. [Link.]

Bar Kokhba also died, either executed by the sages for making false Messianic claims, or during the final battle for Betar. [Link.]

Bar-Kokhba led the Jewish army through three and a half years of revolt. He died in a massive battle at Bethar, in the Judean hills. [Link.]

Bar Kokhba's fate is not certain, with two alternative traditions in the Babylonian Talmud ascribing the death of Bar Kokhba either to a snake bite or other natural causes during the Roman siege or possibly killed on the orders of the Sanhedrin, as a false Messiah. According to Lamentations Rabbah, the head of Bar Kokhba was presented to Emperor Hadrian after the Siege of Betar. [Link.]

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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:31 pm

Ben C. Smith wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:21 pm

This is what I have found so far:

The fate of Bar Kochba himself is not clear, though the sources indicate that he most likely died in the final battle for Beitar or shortly before. [Link.]

Bar Kokhba also died, either executed by the sages for making false Messianic claims, or during the final battle for Betar. [Link.]

Bar-Kokhba led the Jewish army through three and a half years of revolt. He died in a massive battle at Bethar, in the Judean hills. [Link.]

Bar Kokhba's fate is not certain, with two alternative traditions in the Babylonian Talmud ascribing the death of Bar Kokhba either to a snake bite or other natural causes during the Roman siege, or possibly killed on the orders of the Sanhedrin, as a false Messiah. According to Lamentations Rabbah, the head of Bar Kokhba was presented to Emperor Hadrian after the Siege of Betar. [Link.]

The highlighted propositions sound familiar ...

Rabbinical literature ascribes the defeat to Bar Kokhba killing his maternal uncle, Rabbi Elazar Hamudaʻi, after suspecting him of collaborating with the enemy, thereby forfeiting Divine protection - Jerusalem Talmud Ta'anit iv. 68d; Lamentations Rabbah ii. 2.

As for Betar, the Betar fortress is said to have been the last standing Jewish fortress in the Bar Kokhba revolt of the 2nd century CE. Bar Kokhba and the remnants of his army are said to have finally withdrawn to the fortress of Betar. The city is said to have been besieged for three and a half years. Its defenders (including children who were found in the city) were said to have been put to death, except for one Jewish youth whose life was spared, viz. Simeon ben Gamliel II - Palestinian Talmud, Taanit 4:5 (24a–b).

Interestingly, Betar is also said to be specified in the Septuagint as one of the cities of the Tribe of Judah.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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