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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:42 am
by Giuseppe
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:29 am
which outright smokes your dumbass arguments and theories and proves that the belief in transmigration was based upon the scapegoat, and was the source for the Barabbas episode.
I am really not interested even to confute that point. Someway , I may save from your absurd view the idea that the presence of Barabbas in prison, the his being a man, allegorizes the fact that the Son of Father (= not YHWH) was imprisoned in the body of a man and waited the liberation from it, i.e. the separationism of proto-Mark.

With the body considered as a prison of the spirit: a classical gnostic image.

But even in this case, it was not an allegory, but still the caustic parody of the Judaizers against the separationism of Cerinthus (=enemy of the creator) et similia.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:45 am
by Joseph D. L.
Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:34 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:25 am
You've just shot yourself in the head. If the Gospels are written to placate to a largely Roman/gentile readership, then how is the Barabbas episode a parody of the Marcionites, whom you have argued is predominantly gentile/anti-Jewish in beliefs?

WHY ARE THE JEWS DEPICTED AS CHOOSING BARABBAS? Shouldn't it be the Romans who choose to let Barabbas go, and to hell with what the Jews want?

You don't actually know what you're saying anymore, do you?
because the assumption behind any Gospels is that the "Jews", meant as people, are condemned by the history therefore they are in any case enemies of the supreme god. The fact that they chose Barabbas (parody of the anti-Jewish Son of Father of Marcion), is perfectly in line with the accusation thrown by Tertullian against the Jews and Marcion, as being de facto secretly allies against the Judaizers.
That makes absolutely no sense. So "Jew" doesn't mean "Jew", it means whatever you need it to mean to expand your agenda on here.

And Son of the Father was the title used by the Jewish Christians for Christ.
Afterall, Tertullian was correct:
  • The Jews want that the Christians go distant from themselves
  • Marcion wants that the Jews go distant from the Christians.
  • Therefore: they are allied against the Jewish-Christians, aka Judaizers, aka Catholics.
This is the most idiotic thing you've ever said. So the Nazarenes and Ebionites are not Jewish Christians, and a group who rejects the Jews are Jewish Christians, even though most of them were gentile proselytes?
From this POV, the fool Tertullian is more historical and less apologist.
The only fool here is you, fool.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:47 am
by Joseph D. L.
Giuseppe wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:42 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:29 am
which outright smokes your dumbass arguments and theories and proves that the belief in transmigration was based upon the scapegoat, and was the source for the Barabbas episode.
I am really not interested even to confute that point. Someway , I may save from your absurd view the idea that the presence of Barabbas in prison, the his being a man, allegorizes the fact that the Son of Father (= not YHWH) was imprisoned in the body of a man and waited the liberation from it, i.e. the separationism of proto-Mark.

With the body considered as a prison of the spirit: a classical gnostic image.

But even in this case, it was not an allegory, but still the caustic parody of the Judaizers against the separationism of Cerinthus (=enemy of the creator) et similia.
This was not even coherent.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:49 am
by Joseph D. L.
And if you had any honesty in your body, you would know that the main point of the Barabbas episode was the release of Barabbas. His imprisonment is only an assumption made by the reader and is irrelevant.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:52 am
by Giuseppe
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:37 am
Do confuse the subject. You are claiming that Barabbas would have been rejected by Jews because he was a murdering insurrectionist, yet Jews followed other murdering insurrectionists all the time.
Please, the my view is:
Barabbas would have been rejected by most Jews, by the time the Gospels were written, because he was a murdering insurrectionist, yet some Jews followed other murdering insurrectionists all the time

And the Ebionites didn't condemn the rebels. They were the rebels. Their Christ was bar Kochba. But even ignoring that,
...willingly, obviously, naturally...
this still does not address the question and makes the likelihood of Barabbas being exalted by JEWS, NOT CHRISTIANS OR MARCIONITES, as portrayed in ALL THE GOSPELS, INCLUDING THE MARCIONITE'S.
the fact (or possibility) that the Barabbas episode ended, before or after, in a marcionite gospel (proto-Luke), is evidence of the fact that the condemnation of a criminal is universal, that Barabbas in the story is a criminal. That he and who choses him in the story are evil.

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah.

typical American simplification of the things.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:57 am
by Joseph D. L.
the fact (or possibility) that the Barabbas episode ended, brfore or after, in a marcionite gospel (proto-Luke), is evidence of the fact that the condemnation of a criminal is universal, that Barabbas in the story is a criminal. That he and who choses him in the story are evil.
So the Jews who chose him over their Christ, whom they condemn as the real criminal and the Barabbas episode is not a parody of the Marcionites because it appears in their own Gospel.

Thank you for admitting that I am right.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:01 am
by Giuseppe
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:45 am
That makes absolutely no sense. So "Jew" doesn't mean "Jew", it means whatever you need it to mean to expand your agenda on here.
for me, a catholic Tertullian is more Jewish than Marcion. Even so, Tertullian accused the Jews for secret common alliance or conspiracy with Marcion against the Christian Catholics.
And Son of the Father was the title used by the Jewish Christians for Christ.
the only gospel where Son of the Father occurs again and again is in proto-John, where Jesus accuses Moses of murder. Something a true Jew can't never do.
This is the most idiotic thing you've ever said. So the Nazarenes and Ebionites are not Jewish Christians
no, they are Jewish Christians and they are Judaizers insofar they insisted on the humanity of Jesus to make him a mere Jewish prophet.
...and a group who rejects the Jews are Jewish Christians, even though most of them were gentile proselytes?
Justin adored the god of the Jews, for your knowledge. But he, as Samaritan, hated the Jews.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:02 am
by Joseph D. L.
typical American simplification of the things.
Because that quote doesn't condemn the use of terrorism???

But by all mean, Giuseppe, explain what it actually means. Is it about the demiurge? Or John the Baptist? Or fucking Barabbas?

Vai a farti fottere suino. Tua madre avrebbe dovuto abortirti.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:05 am
by Joseph D. L.
the only gospel where Son of the Father occurs again and again is in proto-John, where Jesus accuses Moses of murder. Something a true Jew can't never do.
So your own imaginary text that proves what you need it to prove.

Okay. Whatever.

Justin was a Nazarene, who accepted the virgin birth and Protoevangelium of James , something the Ebionites and Samaritans rejected.

Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:08 am
by Giuseppe
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:57 am
the fact (or possibility) that the Barabbas episode ended, brfore or after, in a marcionite gospel (proto-Luke), is evidence of the fact that the condemnation of a criminal is universal, that Barabbas in the story is a criminal. That he and who choses him in the story are evil.
So the Jews who chose him over their Christ, whom they condemn as the real criminal and the Barabbas episode is not a parody of the Marcionites because it appears in their own Gospel.

Thank you for admitting that I am right.
the Marcionites were gentiles. They didn't know the Hebrew. Hence they couldn't realize that Jesus means "YHWH saves", or that "Bar-Abbas" means Son of Father. Otherwise, they would have rejected both.

Since Barabbas was invented by Judaizers in a Gospel addressed to Judaizers, the irony of the anti-Marcionite parody implicit in Barabbas was meant to confirm in their belief their readers, not the rival readers of the gospels of the enemies.

Hence you are supporting my argument, really .