From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:45 pm

You still haven't explained why Jews followed these very same insurrectionist murderers, even after 70 ad, and even against an emperor who tried to placate to them.

I'm waiting, Guiseppe. Either give an answer, or shut up and leave.
Last edited by Joseph D. L. on Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:48 pm

You are giving me a good reason to hate the democracy itself.
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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:08 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:45 pm
You still haven't explained why Jews followed these very same insurrectionist murderers, even after 70 ad, and even against an emperor who tried to placate to them.

I'm waiting, Guiseppe. Either give an answer, or shut up and leave.
after the 70 CE, there were not more Christians in Judea. Bar-Kokhba persecuted the Christians of Galilee, according to the Judaizer Justin. That the Gospels were pro-Romans is conceded even by proponents of the Zealot hypothesis. Even under the radical scenario that the historical Jesus was seditious, it is a fact that all the Gospels want to be welcomed by a Roman public.

It is very irrational even only to imagine that Barabbas is "exalted" in the Gospels.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:16 am

That was not the question.

The question was...

WHY DID JEWS FOLLOW THE INSURRECTIONIST MURDERERS LIKE SIMON BAR KOCHBA IF THEY WERE MORALLY AGAINST HIM???

Your argument is contingent on this one, single point, and have you yet to explain this one fact.

Are you implying that the Gospels were entirely devoid of Jewish identity, even those used by the Nazarenes and Ebionites? Are you assuming that Christ was entirely Gentile in identity, even for Nazarenes and Ebionites?
Last edited by Joseph D. L. on Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:18 am

That the Gospels were pro-Romans is conceded even by proponents of the Zealot hypothesis. Even under the radical scenario that the historical Jesus was seditious, it is a fact that all the Gospels want to be welcomed by a Roman public.
Then Barabbas is a parody of Jews and Judaism, not Marcion, the gentile.

You're a moron.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:25 am

You've just shot yourself in the head. If the Gospels are written to placate to a largely Roman/gentile readership, then how is the Barabbas episode a parody of the Marcionites, whom you have argued is predominantly gentile/anti-Jewish in beliefs?

WHY ARE THE JEWS DEPICTED AS CHOOSING BARABBAS? Shouldn't it be the Romans who choose to let Barabbas go, and to hell with what the Jews want?

You don't actually know what you're saying anymore, do you?

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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:25 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:16 am
That was not the question.

The question was...

WHY DID JEWS FOLLOW THE INSURRECTIONIST MURDERERS LIKE SIMON BAR KOCHBA IF THEY WERE MORALLY AGAINST HIM???

Your argument is contingent on this one, single point, and have you yet to explain this one fact.

Are you implying that the Gospels were entirely devoid of Jewish identity, even those used by the Nazarenes and Ebionites? Are you assuming that Christ was entirely Gentile in identity, even for Nazarenes and Ebionites?
Why do you assume that any Jew has to be positive with the rebels? Josephus died entirely Jew, but he condemned the Zealots and called them "Robbers", not precisely a positive term. My point is that even the ebionites and Nazarenes, 100% Jews, condemned the rebels. The latter were considered as Islamic terrorists. Any connection with terrorists was condemned. Just as today.

Can you point out a book written by a Muslim where the terrorists are described in an half-positive light? I don't think you can.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:29 am

And you haven't even address chapter seven of the Epistle of Barnabas, which outright smokes your dumbass arguments and theories and proves that the belief in transmigration was based upon the scapegoat, and was the source for the Barabbas episode.

You lose.

You're done.

You have nothing.

You are have failed in life.

Is that why you're always here? Is that why you seek validation for your theories? Is your life so miserable that you have to come here to find meaning?

I feel sorry for you, man. But your continued abuse and self righteousness will only make people ignore you.

Get help.

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Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:34 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:25 am
You've just shot yourself in the head. If the Gospels are written to placate to a largely Roman/gentile readership, then how is the Barabbas episode a parody of the Marcionites, whom you have argued is predominantly gentile/anti-Jewish in beliefs?

WHY ARE THE JEWS DEPICTED AS CHOOSING BARABBAS? Shouldn't it be the Romans who choose to let Barabbas go, and to hell with what the Jews want?

You don't actually know what you're saying anymore, do you?
because the assumption behind any Gospels is that the "Jews", meant as people, are condemned by the history therefore they are in any case enemies of the supreme god. The fact that they chose Barabbas (parody of the anti-Jewish Son of Father of Marcion), is perfectly in line with the accusation thrown by Tertullian against the Jews and Marcion, as being de facto secretly allies against the Judaizers.

Afterall, Tertullian was correct:
  • The Jews want that the Christians go distant from themselves
  • Marcion wants that the Jews go distant from the Christians.
  • Therefore: they are allied against the Jewish-Christians, aka Judaizers, aka Catholics.
From this POV, the fool Tertullian is more historical and less apologist.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:37 am

Why do you assume that any Jew has to be positive with the rebels? Josephus died entirely Jew, but he condemned the Zealots and called them "Robbers", not precisely a positive term. My point is that even the ebionites and Nazarenes, 100% Jews, condemned the rebels. The latter were considered as Islamic terrorists. Any connection with terrorists was condemned. Just as today.
Do confuse the subject. You are claiming that Barabbas would have been rejected by Jews because he was a murdering insurrectionist, yet Jews followed other murdering insurrectionists all the time.

And the Ebionites didn't condemn the rebels. They were the rebels. Their Christ was bar Kochba. But even ignoring that, this still does not address the question and makes the likelihood of Barabbas being exalted by JEWS, NOT CHRISTIANS OR MARCIONITES, as portrayed in ALL THE GOSPELS, INCLUDING THE MARCIONITE'S.
Can you point out a book written by a Muslim where the terrorists are described in an half-positive light? I don't think you can.
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And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah.


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