From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:51 am
See how much is intelligent this mythicist named Jeff Q, about where Bar-Kokhba is really in the Gospels:

Simon of Cyrene and Simon bar Kokkhba both have a son named Rufus. That seems to [be] way to[o] coincidental. If Simon of Cyrene was a cypher for Bar Kokhba, that would explain why Gnostics generally believed he was crucified in Jesus’ place and why Jesus would laugh about it.

(Giuseppe's bold)

ADDENDA:
This may even explain why Barabbas was introduced. Just as the Gnostics condemned Simon Bar Kohba to the cross, so the Judaizers condemned the rebel Bar-Abbas to the fugue.
Does anyone know what Gnostic texts show

1. belief Simon of Cyrene was was crucified in Jesus’ place [and why Jesus would laugh about it]?,
and,
2. Gnostics condemned Simon Bar Kohba to the cross? (mentioned in the references in (1) immediately above) ??

There's some interesting commentary in this page ff in The Crosses of Pompeii: Jesus-Devotion in a Vesuvian Town by Bruce W. Longenecker
Giuseppe
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Surely somewhere in a Gnostic text it is written that a Simon was the true victim. To distinguish this fact from the Cyrenaic episode seems too much forced, as distinction.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. »

If Irenaeus is writing that Basilides taught that Simon was crucified in lieu of Jesus then the inference is that the Gospel of Basilides made this explicit claim.

But take stock. The claim is that the gnostics rejected the rebellious Jewish messiah, yet the Jews are written of as demanding the release for the rebellious Barabbas. Irenaeus seems to say that the Basilidians were rejecting the idea that Jesus could be crucified and that Simon of Cyrene was crucified to deceive the ones who didn't know better.

So which is it? Is Barabbas released or executed?

And it was known that Simon bar Kochba was beheaded. Lukuas, in all probability, was crucified in Lod. And unlike bar Kochba, Lukuas still had followers even after his death.

So Simon, of Cyrene, is an allegory of Lukuas, of Cyrene. Not Simon bar Kochba.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

I consider plausible the your hypothesis on Lukuas etc but only in virtue of the fact that Basilides hated the Zealots and probably their hostility would have shown itself in the Cyrenaic episode along the lines so well described by Jeff_Q. But obviously you take this occasion to criticize me about Barabbas, when you write:
Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:39 pm But take stock. The claim is that the gnostics rejected the rebellious Jewish messiah, yet the Jews are written of as demanding the release for the rebellious Barabbas. Irenaeus seems to say that the Basilidians were rejecting the idea that Jesus could be crucified and that Simon of Cyrene was crucified to deceive the ones who didn't know better.

So which is it? Is Barabbas released or executed?
Barabbas betrayes evidence of rival people who wanted that the victim of the evil Jews was the Son of an Alien Father: an "anti-Christ" insofar not the Jewish Messiah. Hence who invented Barabbas makes it certain that the victim of the evil Jews was just their Jewish Christ. Along the lines so well described by RG Price: the Jews kill their Christ, therefore YHWH kills the Jews in 70 CE.

The Basilidians wanted another scenario: the Jews wanted to kill the Son of an unknown Father, but they ended to kill the Jewish rebellious messiah Simon. Clearly, the Cyrenaic episode was invented to make it clear that Simon limited himself to be a carrier (not Richard) of the cross, not the true victim on the cross.

The problem I have with you, Joseph D.L. is that you want to interpret Barabbas and Simon as written by the original more or less "heretical" authors. No, they weren't. They were interpolated by Catholics against respectively Marcion and Basilides.

Ben seems to ignore all this. I wonder about this his resistance, because it would make better just his case that Mark used (polemically) previous Gospels.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:57 pm I consider plausible the your hypothesis on Lukuas etc but only in virtue of the fact that Basilides hated the Zealots and probably their hostility would have shown itself in the Cyrenaic episode along the lines so well described by Jeff_Q.
This has always been your problem, Giuseppe. You take a casual thought experiment, something that even the author does off the cuff, and extrapolate all sorts of differing ideas that you then take to be axiomatic and beyond dispute.

Barabbas betrayes evidence of rival people who wanted that the victim of the evil Jews was the Son of an Alien Father: an "anti-Christ" insofar not the Jewish Messiah. Hence who invented Barabbas makes it certain that the victim of the evil Jews was just their Jewish Christ. Along the lines so well described by RG Price: the Jews kill their Christ, therefore YHWH kills the Jews in 70 CE.
But according to you, those who believed this "Alien Father", were not Jews. If Barabbas, whom you call an unrepentant evil figure, is demanded release by the Jews, how does that bare ill will towards the Marcionites? "Son of the Father" was a Jewish Christian belief, not Marcionite.

Honestly man, you just ad hoc your way through this.


The Basilidians wanted another scenario: the Jews wanted to kill the Son of an unknown Father, but they ended to kill the Jewish rebellious messiah Simon. Clearly, the Cyrenaic episode was invented to make it clear that Simon limited himself to be a carrier (not Richard) of the cross, not the true victim on the cross.
Then why is it the Romans who kill Christ? If the Jews were to execute Jesus for blasphemy, they have a specific Law for it: stoning to death, then having his dead body hung upon a tree.
The problem I have with you, Joseph D.L. is that you want to interpret Barabbas and Simon as written by the original more or less "heretical" authors. No, they weren't. They were interpolated by Catholics against respectively Marcion and Basilides.
No I don't. Lukuas was seen as a messianic figure, and so was bar Kochba. Barabbas and Simon of Cyrene would only be later, much later, allegories to them. I have even stated multiple times that Barabbas as an allegory of the transmigration, but only insofar as the idea of transmigration is concerned. Simon of Cyrene is that same deal, and will have confirmation that he was indeed seen as that very thing. The only difference here is that Simon of Cyrene was historical [Lukuas]. Barabbas wasn't. So everything in Jewish Christianity begins with him. My theory on Hadrian is that he was seen as the Christ to the Marcionites and Carpocratians, and this is the origin of the gentile Christianity. Judaism without the Laws of Moses, because they had been banned by Hadrian.
Ben seems to ignore all this. I wonder about this his resistance, because it would make better just his case that Mark used (polemically) previous Gospels.
Because he doesn't see it like that. He is free to do as he wants without you interfering in his thought process.

I want an actual show of hands here. How many of you guys buy Giuseppe's interpretation of Barabbas being a parody of Marcionism?
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:34 amYou take a casual thought experiment, something that even the author does off the cuff, and extrapolate all sorts of differing ideas that you then take to be axiomatic and beyond dispute.
it is called "free research under the Christ Myth theory".

But according to you, those who believed this "Alien Father", were not Jews.
no, the Jews, in the story, wanted a rebellious named Barabbas free. Those who believed the "Alien Father", in the real past, were gentile Marcionites.
The caustic parody behind Barabbas is that the gentile Marcionites ended to adore a Jewish criminal named Barabbas, the same loved by the evil Jews.
If Barabbas, whom you call an unrepentant evil figure, is demanded release by the Jews, how does that bare ill will towards the Marcionites? "Son of the Father" was a Jewish Christian belief, not Marcionite.
You are unable to distinguish between a story and the History. In the story Barabbas is an evil Jew loved by evil Jews. In the real History Barabbas is a parody against the Marcionites: you bastard Marcionites, who claim that you adore an alien Son of Father killed by evil Jews, really are adoring an evil Jew adored by evil Jews.

It is similar to a modern parody against Nazi. Hitler, according to analysis of DNA (sic), was Jew and Moroccan. Hence the irony is that the Nazis, haters of Jews, were really following a Jew and Moroccan as fuhrer.

Do you like the irony?

(it seems that the number 2 of III Reich, Heidrich, was really of Jewish origins, according to serious historians).

Do you see that in History, parodies as this were much diffuse ?

Muhammad was considered by medieval Christians a pagan idol, Baphomet: are the Muslims polytheists ? Really?
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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MrMacSon
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by MrMacSon »

Joseph D. L. wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:39 pm And it was known that Simon bar Kochba was beheaded ...
Well, it's said his head was presented to Emperor Hadrian - he could have been beheaded post mortem. Not that it matters much.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Giuseppe »

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wor ... -show.html
Adolf Hitler is likely to have had Jewish and African roots, DNA tests have shown.
"Marcionites are likely to have adored a Jewish insurrectionist who was not crucified, the Barabbas episode has shown".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. »

You are unable to distinguish between a story and the History. In the story Barabbas is an evil Jew loved by evil Jews. In the real History Barabbas is a parody against the Marcionites: you bastard Marcionites, who claim that you adore an alien Son of Father killed by evil Jews, really are adoring an evil Jew adored by evil Jews.
This doesn’t even make sense. So in history Barabbas, now a historic figure to you, is a parody—a literary device used for mockery—against the Marcionites. But then it isn’t, but then it is again...

Guy you are so snowed under your own b.s. that you have abandoned logic altogether. Your mind is so knotted that you are unable to think straight.

I keep looking at the above quote and it’s like I’m reading about’Time Cube’ again. How you think this makes any cohesive sense is truly frightening. You need psychiatric help. Holy damn.
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Joseph D. L.
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Re: From Hadrian, to Barnabas, to Marcion

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Giuseppe wrote: Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:36 am https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/wor ... -show.html
Adolf Hitler is likely to have had Jewish and African roots, DNA tests have shown.
"Marcionites are likely to have adored a Jewish insurrectionist who was not crucified, the Barabbas episode has shown".
Only a true moron believes that...

And look what we have here...
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