Page 1 of 1

Watson's Take on Papias: Matthew Wrote to Correct Mark

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:08 am
by Secret Alias
I often accuse Watson of eisegesis. But then maybe I am guilty this time. In his
Irenaeus is here dependent on Papias. Papias speaks of the Elder John along with Aristion as “disciples of the Lord,” and Irenaeus identifies this “disciple of the Lord” with the “disciple whom Jesus loved,” the putative author of the fourth gospel (cf. Jn. 13.23; 21.24). Papias, however shows no knowledge of this text.31 Irenaeus's claim that Matthew was written “among the Hebrews in their own language” echoes Papias's claim that Matthew “set the sayings in order in the Hebrew language.” The only difference is that Irenaeus uses the term “gospel” to refer to a written text whereas Papias does not. For Irenaeus, Mark is “the disciple and translator of Peter.” The second term derives directly from Papias; the first echoes his reference to Mark as “following” Peter. Irenaeus not only takes over Papias's view of Mark as based on Peter's preaching, he also asserts a similar relationship between Luke and Paul.

In view of Irenaeus's dependence on Papias, the differences between them are striking. According to Papias, Mark wrote first and Matthew wrote to remedy his defects. According to Irenaeus, Matthew wrote first. His gospel may be dated during the ministry of Peter and Paul in Rome, about which Papias has nothing to say, and it was only “after their departure” that gospels were written by followers of Peter and Paul who recollected their preaching. Papias's defence of Mark against his critics has disappeared. Luke and John have been added to Matthew and Mark — or, on Papias's order, to Mark and Matthew. The choice of this order may acknowledge that the two gospels known to Papias are likely to have been the earliest. There is no indication in either Papias or Irenaeus that Matthew and Luke were written at much the same time, as the Q theory must suppose. Papias testifies directly to Markan priority and indirectly, in conjunction with Irenaeus, to the priority of Mark and Matthew over Luke. https://books.google.com/books?id=23NyC ... AHoECAcQAg
Does Papias really testify to Markan primacy? I've never read it that way before. Thoughts? That would imply that Irenaeus COMPLETE abuses the original testimony of Papias doesn't it?

Re: Watson's Take on Papias: Matthew Wrote to Correct Mark

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:11 am
by andrewcriddle
Secret Alias wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:08 am
I often accuse Watson of eisegesis. But then maybe I am guilty this time. In his
Irenaeus is here dependent on Papias. Papias speaks of the Elder John along with Aristion as “disciples of the Lord,” and Irenaeus identifies this “disciple of the Lord” with the “disciple whom Jesus loved,” the putative author of the fourth gospel (cf. Jn. 13.23; 21.24). Papias, however shows no knowledge of this text.31 Irenaeus's claim that Matthew was written “among the Hebrews in their own language” echoes Papias's claim that Matthew “set the sayings in order in the Hebrew language.” The only difference is that Irenaeus uses the term “gospel” to refer to a written text whereas Papias does not. For Irenaeus, Mark is “the disciple and translator of Peter.” The second term derives directly from Papias; the first echoes his reference to Mark as “following” Peter. Irenaeus not only takes over Papias's view of Mark as based on Peter's preaching, he also asserts a similar relationship between Luke and Paul.

In view of Irenaeus's dependence on Papias, the differences between them are striking. According to Papias, Mark wrote first and Matthew wrote to remedy his defects. According to Irenaeus, Matthew wrote first. His gospel may be dated during the ministry of Peter and Paul in Rome, about which Papias has nothing to say, and it was only “after their departure” that gospels were written by followers of Peter and Paul who recollected their preaching. Papias's defence of Mark against his critics has disappeared. Luke and John have been added to Matthew and Mark — or, on Papias's order, to Mark and Matthew. The choice of this order may acknowledge that the two gospels known to Papias are likely to have been the earliest. There is no indication in either Papias or Irenaeus that Matthew and Luke were written at much the same time, as the Q theory must suppose. Papias testifies directly to Markan priority and indirectly, in conjunction with Irenaeus, to the priority of Mark and Matthew over Luke. https://books.google.com/books?id=23NyC ... AHoECAcQAg
Does Papias really testify to Markan primacy? I've never read it that way before. Thoughts? That would imply that Irenaeus COMPLETE abuses the original testimony of Papias doesn't it?
IMHO Papias and Irenaeus both believed that original Matthew was written in Hebrew (or possibly Aramaic) and later translated into Greek. I suspect that they both regarded this original Hebrew Gospel as older that Mark the first Greek Gospel. The difference between them is that Papias appears to regard Greek Matthew, (the Matthew he and Irenaeus used), as an inaccurate translation into Greek, while Irenaeus seems to have no reservations about the accuracy of Greek Matthew in representing Hebrew Matthew.

Andrew Criddle