John 16:33: evidence of crucifixion in outer space

[Giuseppe]

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

(John 16:33)

When Jesus says these words, he is not still crucified on the earth, but the only way he could "overcome the world" was by the his crucifixion.

Therefore the only logical conclusion is that Jesus "overcame the world" by the his celestial crucifixion in outer space.

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” (=since I was crucified in the air)

(John 16:33)

[Giuseppe]

The idea that Jesus was already crucified in outer space (therefore the his mission is already fulfilled) is found again here:

I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

(John 17:4)

Note that the earthly Passion story starts only from 18:1 et seq.

Hence in the original myth Jesus descended on the earth but only AFTER the his celestial crucifixion in outer space.

The Risen Christ was euhemerized before the Crucified Christ.

[klewis]

This clearly shows evidence of a divine, because the concept of outer space came about centuries later.

Or the could be a modern person, taking on what he knows and reading it into an ancient text.

[Giuseppe]

This clearly shows evidence of a divine, because the concept of outer space came about centuries later.

Or the could be a modern person, taking on what he knows and reading it into an ancient text.

your is a typical fallacy of a false dichotomy.

How can Jesus have "overcome the world" before the his crucifixion on the earth?

Best answer: By the his crucifixion in the lower heavens, in the region known as the "air" (defined by Richard Carrier: outer space).

[Joseph D. L.]

John 16:33: evidence of crucifixion in outer space

A verse that makes neither mention nor reference to crucifixion or outer space? Sure! Why the hell not?!

[Charles Wilson]

John 1: 2 - 3 (RSV):

[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

No, Giuseppe --

Not even a Certificate of Participation this time. Like the Joke of "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's", you make yet another Category error. Caesar already owns everything. "Jesus" already made everything. He does not have to "Overcome" the World. He created it.

How about posting a little less and thinking more about what you do post? That would help everyone immensely.

[Giuseppe]

John 1: 2 - 3 (RSV):

[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. He does not have to "Overcome" the World. He created it.

these verses quoted above by you are Catholic interpolations. In their place, the original (marcionite) verse was:

In the beginning there was the Light...

Charles, seriously, the enumeration of you among the so-called modern mythicists is one of the greatest injustices of this world.

[Giuseppe]

John 16:33: evidence of crucifixion in outer space

A verse that makes neither mention nor reference to crucifixion or outer space? Sure! Why the hell not?!

can you say me an example of a Christ who "wins the world" (!!) by being not still crucified ?

I doubt seriously that you can.

ADDENDA: There are no doubts about the victory against the world being happened in the past:
ἐγὼ νενίκηκα τὸν κόσμον

[Charles Wilson]

John 1: 2 - 3 (RSV):

[2] He was in the beginning with God;
[3] all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

He does not have to "Overcome" the World. He created it.

These verses quoted above by you are Catholic interpolations. In their place, the original (marcionite) verse was:

In the beginning there was the Light...

Charles, seriously, the enumeration of you among the so-called modern mythicists is one of the greatest injustices of this world.

Thank you for your very kind words, Giuseppe. Perhaps you can explain the development from "Catholic Interpolation" to the development of Gnosticism as you see it. I even gave you a huge opening with the John 1 verses and you didn't see it or chose to ignore it.

Of course the John verses are Catholic. The Judaic Culture was alien to the Romans and they fashioned the New Religion around the Ascension of the Flavians using the History they found. This, however, is where I believe you could do some good. The Judaic View had all that the Judaic Society needed ("Outhouse...Paging outhouse...") . God had already spoken to them and given them their Rites. The Romans had to show that Vespasian was chosen to transfer the choices of rulership from the Julio-Claudians to the Flavians. This they did.

It proved insufficient. The New Religion had to be changed. Again, the Baptism of John is changed to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit before more than even a few have heard of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Historically, this matches up nicely with the deification of Titus and the Treachery that followed with Domitian.

Your opening with Gnosticism comes with the death of Domitian, when the knowledge of events of the recent past do not match-up anymore with Historical Events. "We have this brand new Religion that is already a success. How can we modify it so we can keep it going?"

Giuseppe, I'll accept your "Celestial Crucifixion" if you can ground it with the developments of 2nd Century Roman History. This "Crucifixion" is derivative of a developing Roman Bureaucracy trying to find, then mandate, a new Orthodoxy. It could not be from a Judaic Culture. Find these developing links and YOU'LL be the Respected Historicist.

CW

[Giuseppe]

Perhaps you can explain the development from "Catholic Interpolation" to the development of Gnosticism as you see it. I even gave you a huge opening with the John 1 verses and you didn't see it or chose to ignore it.

Probably you are misunderstanding me on this point. Proto-John was a marcionite work, and the incipit talked only about the Light. The Logos was a later Catholic intruder in it. Hence you can't talk of Christ as creator of the kosmos in proto-John, but only as the his winner (very probably by a celestial crucifixion in outer space).

Regarding the your second point, you are free to believe that the Romans were the earliest euhemerizers. What mattered me really is that at the origin of the cult there was the belief in a celestial crucifixion in outer space. And John 16:33 is a clear evidence of it, for who is able to do 2 + 2.

(P.s. note that the point is made by Jean Magne).