Marcion's Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by MrMacSon »

edited: The end of the opening chapter - chapter 1, of course - of book five of Tertullian's Against Marcion:


If you challenge us to your belief, (pray) tell us what things constitute its basis. Either prove the truth of what you believe or, failing in your proof, (tell us) how you believe. Else what conduct is yours, believing in opposition to Him from whom alone comes the proof of that which you believe? Take now from my point of view the apostle, in the same manner as you have received the Christ—the apostle shown to be as much mine as the Christ is. And here, too, we will fight within the same lines, and challenge our adversary on the mere ground of a simple rule, that even an apostle who is said not to belong to the Creator-nay, is displayed as in actual hostility to the Creator—can be fairly regarded as teaching nothing, knowing nothing, wishing nothing in favour of the Creator whilst it would be a first principle with him to set forth another god with as much eagerness as he would use in withdrawing us from the law of the Creator. It is not at all likely that he would call men away from Judaism without showing them at the same time what was the god in whom he invited them to believe; because nobody could possibly pass from allegiance to the Creator without knowing to whom he had to cross over.

For either Christ had already revealed another god—in which case the apostle’s testimony would also follow to the same effect, for fear of his not being else regarded as an apostle of the god whom Christ had revealed, and because of the impropriety of his being concealed by the apostle who had been already revealed by Christ—or Christ had made no such revelation concerning God; then there was all the greater need why the apostle should reveal a God who could now be made known by no one else, and who would undoubtedly be left without any belief at all, if he were revealed not even by an apostle. We have laid down this as our first principle, because we wish at once to profess that we shall pursue the same method here in the apostle’s case as we adopted before in Christ’s case, to prove that he proclaimed no new god; that is, we shall draw our evidence from the epistles of St. Paul himself. Now, the garbled form in which we have found the heretic’s Gospel will have already prepared us to expect to find the epistles also mutilated by him with like perverseness—and that even as respects their number.

Roberts, A., Donaldson, J., & Coxe, A. C. (1997). The Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. III : Translations of the writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325 (430–431). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.

''we shall draw our evidence from the epistles of St. Paul himself'' ...
Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

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Further on part of the opening to book five of Tertullian's Against Marcion:


.... we wish at once to profess that we shall pursue the same method here in the apostle’s case as we adopted before in Christ’s case, to prove that he ['the apostle'] proclaimed no new god; that is, we shall draw 'our evidence' from the epistles of St. Paul himself. Now, the garbled form in which we have found the heretic’s Gospel will have already prepared us to expect to find the epistles also mutilated by him with like perverseness—and that even as respects their number.
.

He's announcing he had to edit the Pauline epistles or is blowing smoke that they substantially existed before he added to them, as ''as respects their number'' indicates ...
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

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So whatever the Church Fathers say is true. Gotcha
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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MrMacSon
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

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Secret Alias wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:51 pm So whatever the Church Fathers say is true. Gotcha
Generally not, as you well know. But occasionally they slip up in their gaslighting, something you also know well.
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

And why is this true than the Mark reference in Philosophumena?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
andrewcriddle
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by andrewcriddle »

perseusomega9 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:10 am But why even mention that at all? Mentioning Paul sure, given the tradition of Markion and Paul, but why even bring up gMark unless their was a connection in the tradition?
I made a suggestion of a possible explanation here

Basically Hippolytus is arguing:
i/ The Gospel tradition which Hippolytus, (but apparently not Marcion), attributes to Luke derives from Mark and Paul.
ii/ Marcion’s doctrine cannot be derived from Mark and Paul.
iii/ Therefore, Marcion’s doctrine cannot be regarded as a legitimate version of the Lukan Gospel tradition.

Andrew Criddle
John2
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by John2 »

perseusomega9 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:17 am and the handwaving away by Roth (and Harnack)is part of the larger problem in biblical scholarship when data doesn't fit the paradigm.

As far as I can tell there are four options here:


1. Hippolytus is wrong and everyone else is right

2. Hippolytus is right and everyone else is wrong

3. Somehow Hippolytus is right and everyone else is right (as per Andrew's argument, for example, which I had linked to upthread)

4. Everyone is wrong


I'd like to pick option number 3 but have yet to see a satisfying explanation for it. So I think the next best option is number 1, because if we don't wave away (or explain to my satisfaction) what Hippolytus says then we have to wave away what everyone else says.

And Hippolytus post-dates Irenaeus, and Irenaeus is the earliest person to say that Marcion used a version of Luke and claims to have learned from Polycarp (who was Marcon's contemporary) and to have had access to Marcion's writings. And as Andrew notes in his link, the citation from Marcion's gospel that Hipplotyus gives is from Luke.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

or this:

Image
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
John2
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by John2 »

Well, since the only thing that doesn't seem to line up with the idea that Marcion used a version of Luke is what Hippolytus says about Mark, I reckon it's just a matter of explaining what he means by that (as Andrew attempts to do), since the citation he gives of Marcion's gospel is from Luke.
You know in spite of all you gained, you still have to stand out in the pouring rain.
Secret Alias
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Re: Marcion's Gospel

Post by Secret Alias »

Right but when you simplify things you make them easier to understand. But when you make things easier to understand - like a Readers Digest version of a book (for those of us who are old enough to remember that) - you necessarily lose quality. I can 'simplify' Beethoven's 9th symphony down to me beating a spoon against a glass. It's easier to understand. I can hear the music in my head when I beat the rhythm. But can you really faithfully represent a symphony with a spoon and a glass? In the same way the Church Fathers are 'simplifying' the relationship between Marcion's gospel and Mark and Luke (and Matthew). But what is it worth? It is like minimizing a symphony like beating a glass with a spoon?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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